What creates morality?

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Kylekettler
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What creates morality?

Post by Kylekettler »

This seems to be an obvious question at the surface level but much more complicated as one dwells deeper. For example, the overwhelming majority of humanity would agree that murder is wrong. Furthermore, the people that do believe that murder is wrong, think that this is an obvious conclusion. It seems to me that there has to be an explanation for why so many people think the way they do. That explanation, particularly on murder, seems to be that we as humans recognize that murder hurts humanity in a negative way by needlessly killing people who could potentially help humanity and therefore view murder as wrong. It seems to make sense to me that this thought of a self-interest for the species could extend to many other morals as well. I haven't ever heard much discussion on this matter and would be curious at what people think produces or creates morality in a broad sense?
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Harbal »

Don't you think that at the root of any moral value there is the principle of whether you, yourself, would want to be on the receiving end of the action in question. If the answer is no then you should consider the action as morally wrong. This then leads to a sort of implicit agreement between you and the rest of society that goes something along the lines of: if you don't try and do this thing to me then I won't do it to you. So, in that sense, self interest is the basis of morality.
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LuckyR
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by LuckyR »

Harbal wrote:Don't you think that at the root of any moral value there is the principle of whether you, yourself, would want to be on the receiving end of the action in question. If the answer is no then you should consider the action as morally wrong. This then leads to a sort of implicit agreement between you and the rest of society that goes something along the lines of: if you don't try and do this thing to me then I won't do it to you. So, in that sense, self interest is the basis of morality.
No it doesn't, to answer your question. For example, if you ask a Southern slave owner in the 1850s: "is it morally acceptable to own a slave?" the answer is going to be yes. Your answer in 2015 is likely going to be no. Part of the reason for this disconnect is that the 1850 guy doesn't think the African native is like him in just about any way, so your Golden Rule makes no sense to him. Of course he wouldn't want to be a slave, but he isn't an African native so why would that be a relevant question? Kind of a like a vegetarian asking "how would you like to be eaten", to an omnivore. That dude thinks: I'm not a chicken or a pig, this question does not apply to me.
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Jklint »

Harbal wrote:Don't you think that at the root of any moral value there is the principle of whether you, yourself, would want to be on the receiving end of the action in question. If the answer is no then you should consider the action as morally wrong. This then leads to a sort of implicit agreement between you and the rest of society that goes something along the lines of: if you don't try and do this thing to me then I won't do it to you. So, in that sense, self interest is the basis of morality.
It's a lot like a social contract based on consensus of do no evil. Unfortunately, the Law as middleman, is more often on the side of the perpetrator to protect their rights. It's a balancing act more often in favor of the criminal than the victim and that diminishes justice which diminishes morality. This is especially true in the case of organized crime which if not eradicated, because the law won't allow it, becomes a major affront to morality and society suffers as consequence. Sometimes it becomes necessary to reflect whether the Law itself is not criminal in some ways debasing the social contract upon which societies are based.
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Alias »

Kylekettler wrote:This seems to be an obvious question at the surface level but much more complicated as one dwells deeper.
Not really. People who live in groups (which is all but a very few outcasts) need to minimize conflict and friction in order for the group to function. That means making laws and manners, respectively. Morality is based on the assumptions and expectations that members of a group have about one another, their social structure and how it's supposed to work.
For example, the overwhelming majority of humanity would agree that murder is wrong. Furthermore, the people that do believe that murder is wrong, think that this is an obvious conclusion.
Why does everyone use this most problematic of examples - without defining "murder"? Murder is the unlawful, deliberate killing of another enfranchised human being. The definition is different in every society, depending on the law and the franchise. In one society, a man has a right to kill his slaves, in another he may kill an unfaithful wife, a rustler or water-thief; in some he may even be required to kill an aged parent or a defective infant. In nearly all societies, until the last few decades, the execution of felons was routine, and so is the killing of foreigners; in war, it's mandatory. The moral code doesn't usually forbid killing in general, or even the killing of another human. Law usually forbids the killing of persons in good standing within one's own society, and the reason isn't that we abhor killing; it's that we know how costly and socially destructive personal hatreds and vendettas can be.

No particular group, tribe or nation is concerned about what hurts humanity: most of them want to hurt at least one other group, tribe or nation. So far, the only body we've constituted that's concerned with the whole species is the UN - and its moral code is far from universally adopted.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Mgrinder
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Mgrinder »

Kylekettler wrote: I haven't ever heard much discussion on this matter and would be curious at what people think produces or creates morality in a broad sense?
What creates morality is the fact that the majority of people care about the welfare of other human beings. When you care about others, you have a reason to act in their interests. This gives most of us a reason to act morally.
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Jklint »

What creates morality is how a group wishes to define itself relative to other groups and what laws are acceptable in that definition.
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Harbal »

LuckyR wrote: the 1850 guy doesn't think the African native is like him in just about any way, so your Golden Rule makes no sense to him.
No but he should do and "should" is the word I used.
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Harbal »

LuckyR wrote: For example, if you ask a Southern slave owner in the 1850s: "is it morally acceptable to own a slave?" the answer is going to be yes.
I think the point here is that the slave, or rather, slaves as a class or group, are not in the position of being able to inflict slavery on the slave owner. Therefore, he can deny the slave's humanity, in order to square things with his conscience and, as slaves cannot retaliate, he has no need of the reciprocal agreement whereby the parties don't harm each other. I don't think self interest is the conscious reason for moral behaviour but I think it is the reason we have evolved the capacity for it.
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Lagayscienza »

Just being the types of creatures humans are creates morality. Evolution by natural selection created morality just like it created language - or at least the substrate from which these would emerge. There's nothing strange about this.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Sy Borg »

The short answer is social living, and morality started before humans:
When beings need to cooperate to get by then ethics must necessarily form because those who are left out won't continue to cooperate.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Lagayscienza »

That's right. We can see morality in other animals and so it is no surprise that we also are moral creatures. It would be surprising if we were not. In fact we would not have succeeded as a species had evolution not provided the substrate out of which morality emerged.
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Mgrinder
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Mgrinder »

Harbal wrote:
LuckyR wrote: For example, if you ask a Southern slave owner in the 1850s: "is it morally acceptable to own a slave?" the answer is going to be yes.
I think the point here is that the slave, or rather, slaves as a class or group, are not in the position of being able to inflict slavery on the slave owner. Therefore, he can deny the slave's humanity, in order to square things with his conscience and, as slaves cannot retaliate, he has no need of the reciprocal agreement whereby the parties don't harm each other. I don't think self interest is the conscious reason for moral behaviour but I think it is the reason we have evolved the capacity for it.
If you had an honest southern slave owner, and asked him to assume that slaves were human beings just like him, and then asked him if he thought slavery was good for slaves, what would he say? If he was honest, and assumed slaves were humans, it's pretty hard to imagine that he's say it was good for the slaves. Hence his ability to make moral judgements is the same as anyone else's.

However, if you then asked if he cares, who knows what he'd say. Maybe he just doesn't care about anyone's welfare but his own. He might revert to the idea that slaves aren't human or something. Who knows...
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Harbal »

Mgrinder wrote: Who knows...
The slave owner, presumably.
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Mgrinder
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Mgrinder »

Harbal wrote:
Mgrinder wrote: Who knows...
The slave owner, presumably.
Heh. Awesome.
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