What creates morality?

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Sculptor1
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Kaz_1983 wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 2:51 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 30th, 2019, 7:11 pm
Morality exists in exactly the same way that god does. Its a human creation. They are not mutually dependant.
Higher mammals showing not the slightest inkling towards, nor evidence of having a god, all exhibit moral behaviours.
Of the people I have known atheists exhibit the most consistent and reliable moral behaviours. But I suppose they have the advantage, in not having the excuse to change their minds because god told them to.
How do you know whether we are moral because we desire to be good or we only desire to be moral because it's seen as good by other people?
It's not a question. You are stuck in a circular argument of your own making. Being moral and desiring to be good are the same thing. The question is in what way are the natural tendencies (which are definitely the egg in this chicken and egg question) are subverted and modified by culture which is an add on to to our natures.
Like eggs predate chickens, natural moral behaviors predate the formal codification in moral and ethical law.
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Sculptor1
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Aristocles wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 5:32 am We agree human power creates morality, as human power may creates god or not god, etc.? We agree there is power in social institutions, self awareness?

Sounds as if we appear to disagree what morality is, just as it may appear we disagree what/if god is, etc. More generally, we may appear to disagree about what is good about the power, the power we associate with morality. In so doing, we would likely appear to disagree about all of the consequent details, even which begets which - we desire good because it is good or if that which we desire is good because we desire it, etc.
Who are you disagreeing with here?
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Aristocles
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Aristocles »

If being moral is desiring to be good, is there agreement about what it is to be immoral?
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Felix
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Felix »

Aristocles: If being moral is desiring to be good, is there agreement about what it is to be immoral?
Would you say that desiring to be married is the same as being married? Same thing with morality, it is what you do, not what you desire to do. If it does not come naturally to you, if it is not a natural inclination, you have to desire to do it, your soul/psyche has been corrupted. It is for you to discover the nature of that corruption and how it may be corrected - or not, some people enjoy the worldly "perks" of corruption, and their soul is in limbo.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Aristocles
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Aristocles »

I would not say being married = a desire to be married. I would also disagree one enjoys worldly perks of corruption. However, I do think we are touching on clarification of what is morality, as we appeared to have already covered the OP and such clarification appears to follow from the OP.
Aristocles wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 5:32 am Sounds as if we appear to disagree what morality is, just as it may appear we disagree what/if god is, etc. More generally, we may appear to disagree about what is good about the power, the power we associate with morality. In so doing, we would likely appear to disagree about all of the consequent details, even which begets which - we desire good because it is good or if that which we desire is good because we desire it, etc.
Kaz_1983
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 6:24 am
Kaz_1983 wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 2:51 am
How do you know whether we are moral because we desire to be good or we only desire to be moral because it's seen as good by other people?
It's not a question. You are stuck in a circular argument of your own making. Being moral and desiring to be good are the same thing. The question is in what way are the natural tendencies (which are definitely the egg in this chicken and egg question) are subverted and modified by culture which is an add on to to our natures.
Like eggs predate chickens, natural moral behaviors predate the formal codification in moral and ethical law.
No my argument is that morals are constructed by human beings and it's irrational to think otherwise.

Morals as we know them, are just subjective opinions - which are based on personal preferences - it just happens that anything, that's based on subjective opinion even it's a shared universal opinion like murder is bad/life is valuable - it's still just an opinion at the end of the day.

Unless you believe in a God that is...

Let's say a serial killer desires to be good, he strongly believes that killing only 1 person (and having sex with thier dead body..) is poor.... I mean killing 5 people (then having sex with thier dead bodies...) that's good in his opinion.

By your logic that behaviour is moral:
Sculptor1 wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 6:24 am Being moral and desiring to be good are the same thing
Having sex with a dead body isn't objectivity immoral and nor is murder, doing both at the same time isn't objectively immoral. If neither is immoral, do morals even exist or are morals just shared opinions that are based on preferences? .. IMO you just prefer to believe in morality....
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Kaz_1983 wrote: September 4th, 2019, 10:20 pm No my argument is that morals are constructed by human beings and it's irrational to think otherwise.
I did not say otherwise.
However I think it is more than stupid to deny the root natural causes and tendencies provided by nature.

Morals as we know them, are just subjective opinions - which are based on personal preferences
What is the root of the preference. It is merely capricious?
- it just happens that anything, that's based on subjective opinion even it's a shared universal opinion like murder is bad/life is valuable - it's still just an opinion at the end of the day.

Unless you believe in a God that is...
I don't. But the concern about killing fellow humans is widespread. Why should it be?

Let's say a serial killer desires to be good, he strongly believes that killing only 1 person (and having sex with thier dead body..) is poor.... I mean killing 5 people (then having sex with thier dead bodies...) that's good in his opinion.

By your logic that behaviour is moral:
Sculptor1 wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 6:24 am Being moral and desiring to be good are the same thing
Having sex with a dead body isn't objectivity immoral and nor is murder, doing both at the same time isn't objectively immoral. If neither is immoral, do morals even exist or are morals just shared opinions that are based on preferences? .. IMO you just prefer to believe in morality....
If you have tendency to **** corpses than that is good for you, and I am sure that you can find moral justification for it , as I am sure necrophiliacs do.
I do not believe in any form of objective morality, so you have attacked the wrong person, You might want to try someone else.
IMO you are ignoring human nature, which gives all a base line that has meant that all human societies have morals, though those natural tendencies are directed in different ways.
For example, all humans (bar psychopaths) have reservations about killing other humans. Yet all human societies define in different ways those that are deserving of such moral protection. Members of the tribe benefit, whilst outsiders do not. Outsiders might not even qualify as human. Successful societies in the common era have, though, commonly extended the right of life to strangers or guests. So rather than making an enemy of neighboring tribes, xenophilic tribes were able to make large alliances. This has social/evolutionary advantages. The Greeks were big on this, and had it not been for "guest-friendship", the disparate tribes of Greece would not have been able to stand against Persia.
Though all morality is subjective and all opinion. That does not mean it is arbitrary. It means it can be challenged, but does not mean it can be simply dismissed.
We can't live in society without morality. But that does not mean you have to take **** from authority; but know that there are penalties. Since the buttoned down, stuck up 1950s the western world has been on a massive evolution, even revolution in moral thinking.
Only an idiot, such as one I can think of on this Forum, could pretend, with all this change, that moral law can be objective.
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 5th, 2019, 6:06 am Successful societies in the common era have, though, commonly extended the right of life to strangers or guests.
I'm not arguing that "I think morality is useless.. etc"

See I agree the belief that morality exists and is real in that regard. Morality has been key to the modern world being what it is and will continue to influence society in general.

Successful cities have continued being successful and thriving cities because they have extended the belief in morality to strangers and guests. But, just because that is so - that doesn't mean morality as we know it exists.
Sculptor1 wrote: September 5th, 2019, 6:06 am Though all morality is subjective and all opinion.
Generally all opinions aren't treated equal -they have to be, see for subjective morality to work all opinions need to be treated equal (yes even that serial killer, his moral code is equal to anybody else's moral code)

See when we say "X is immoral", we're projecting objective values but there is nothing for them to latch onto, there is nothing to guide our behaviour.

I can still say - I'd prefer "not to be killed" and/or I'd prefer "not to be raped" - don't get me wrong, without morality playing a part - these things are unacceptable.

The belief "that morality is real" is more important than answering the question - does morality even exist? ...

Morality does exist in the way we naturally want to apply it (but ultimately can't..) - (we're projecting objective values but there is nothing for them to latch onto.. etc)
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Re: What creates morality?

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Kaz_1983 wrote: September 5th, 2019, 10:26 am The belief "that morality is real" is more important than answering the question - does morality even exist? ...
You might as well ask is real real.

Morality does exist in the way we naturally want to apply it (but ultimately can't..) - (we're projecting objective values but there is nothing for them to latch onto.. etc)
Objective seem to be no more that what the people who can hear the statement are able to agree with.
Accusations of subjective tend to be reactions to the disagreements of individuals who are not thought of as worthy.
Kaz_1983
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Morality is the human attempt to define what is right and wrong about our actions and thoughts, and what is moral and immoral about our being who we are.

Switch out the words "right/wrong" and "moral/immoral" for "acceptable/unacceptable" -- we don't need morality to guide our behaviour ........ 8)
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Aristocles
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Aristocles »

So there is agreement morality was created by human power dynamics. We agree desiring what is good is moral. We agree morality is hard to place in words as such words attempt to define what is good. It would then appear to follow that we ask where good came from.... But, that would likely lead in many tangential directions. Maybe, looking again for the clarification of what it is to be immoral, or to display bad behavior. Anybody? Then we may ask where that comes from...
Kaz_1983
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Okay, this is about morality:

If a psychopath was to kill another human being, with the knowledge that nobody will EVER find out...

Is it still immoral?
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Aristocles »

I would say behavior on killing is complex and many variables need to be addressed. Without weighing all strategic variables, I would guess we generally agree killing is generally not good behavior, hence the descriptor “psychopath” above. But looking further, we have more to weigh. Above, there is almost no motive. The case presented appears to be killing just for the sake of killing, with a quasi-motive simply because one believes one can, such killing is an agreed aberrance. We may go further and question if one can ever know one will get away free with such killing free and clear, etc. We may say the one being killed was in fact the bigger psychopath, then the action becomes less cut and dried. Nevertheless, I would find it hard to reason ease in thinking such behavior is good, killing because one believes one can, much less could one reasonably call such behavior not wrong. Therefore, killing for the sake of killing, not even an abattoir, would be immoral.
Kaz_1983
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Aristocles wrote: September 13th, 2019, 6:37 am I would say behavior on killing is complex and many variables need to be addressed. Without weighing all strategic variables, I would guess we generally agree killing is generally not good behavior, hence the descriptor “psychopath” above. But looking further, we have more to weigh. Above, there is almost no motive. The case presented appears to be killing just for the sake of killing, with a quasi-motive simply because one believes one can, such killing is an agreed aberrance. We may go further and question if one can ever know one will get away free with such killing free and clear, etc. We may say the one being killed was in fact the bigger psychopath, then the action becomes less cut and dried.
Ohhh it's a hypothetical question.. just like the "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" kinda thing.

Btw he's a crazy psychopath who kills because he can. As for his victim he is a 2 year boy - that little boy is innocent and did nothing to provoke his own death.... that's pretty cut and dried imho.
Nevertheless, I would find it hard to reason ease in thinking such behavior is good, killing because one believes one can, much less could one reasonably call such behavior not wrong. Therefore, killing for the sake of killing, not even an abattoir, would be immoral.
Do you believe morality is subjective or objective?
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Aristocles
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Re: What creates morality?

Post by Aristocles »

Kaz_1983 wrote: September 13th, 2019, 7:04 am
Do you believe morality is subjective or objective?
Upon reflection, I find them rather difficult to distinguish, but seemingly integral to the whole of that which creates morality.
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