Do we owe each other anything?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Alias »

Gary S wrote:For clarification, a question: Would Ayn Rand agree that it is okay for a person to force the man in the boat to save that person's drowning child, or would she not agree?
She would vehemently disagree. If the man were one her protagonists, he might rescue the kid for his own ego gratification, a cash reward or to impress a girl - not because of duty or threat. But if a priceless painting floated by at the same time, that's what she believed he ought to rescue instead - for sure, if the drowning life-form were a dog.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
User avatar
MHopcroft1963
Posts: 62
Joined: January 9th, 2015, 11:33 pm

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by MHopcroft1963 »

Gary S wrote:For clarification, a question: Would Ayn Rand agree that it is okay for a person to force the man in the boat to save that person's drowning child, or would she not agree?
I'm pretty sure she would let the child drown, and some of her followers might go so far as to push it under.

Of course there are many varieties of force, and Rand's fictional "heroes" used many of them. What is more forceful then getting a bunch of armed men together and breaking into Fort Knox to "take back" the money John Galt's followers paid in taxes? Or bl;owing up the building you had designed, and that a lot of people worked very hard and invested a lot of money to build, in what is essentially a fit of pique?

Ayn Rand says you can't use force -- unless your a Nietzschean Superman. Then you can do whatever you want.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Alias »

But if a priceless painting floated by at the same time, that's what she believed he ought to rescue instead - for sure, if the drowning life-form were a dog.
I mean, she would probably want him to save the picture, instead of a ghetto child. She would definitely and unambiguously want him to save a picture rather than a non-human. She would also despise him if he gave up a day a fishing to take care of any kind of familial or civic obligation.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
User avatar
Elder
Premium Member
Posts: 702
Joined: June 4th, 2015, 12:06 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Sandor Szathmari
Location: Canada

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Elder »

There appears to be an emerging consensus (with the expected opposition, of course), that we do owe each other something.

That bring us to the next question of the OP: where to draw the line between freedom and compassion?

I know it is a Pandora's box I just opened, but it is a legitimate question.

For argument's sake, let's assume that we owe each other something.

How much -- where to draw the line?

Is there an ethical principle that would help us decide?

Or is it arbitrary and we fight it out tooth and nail and let the winners decide? :)
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
Gary S
Posts: 239
Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:23 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Greta

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Gary S »

So Rand would say we should let the child drown and not force the man into action. I agree with the assessment.

Elder, on the many forums where you have presented this topic, the vast majority of members who actually answered your hypothetical situation responded that they personally would not force the man to save the child. I believe that is your position also. What are the ramifications of this as related to the counter-example that was discussed in post 26 above?

On a side note, I do agree that "moral dilemma" hypotheticals have great value in forcing us to examine our beliefs. I am surprised to find this view is the minority view.
User avatar
Misty
Premium Member
Posts: 5934
Joined: August 10th, 2011, 8:13 pm
Location: United States of America

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Misty »

Elder,

Will you be answering my posts #8 and #17?

Misty
Things are not always as they appear; it's a matter of perception.

The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.

I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
User avatar
Elder
Premium Member
Posts: 702
Joined: June 4th, 2015, 12:06 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Sandor Szathmari
Location: Canada

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Elder »

Gary S wrote:.... they personally would not force the man to save the child. I believe that is your position also.
Gary, what I said in the OP was that I would not have killed the man. However, I would threaten him, without any hesitation, including shooting in the air, or into the water next to his boat. As alias said: I would do anything, short of killing him, to cause him to save the drowning child and worry about the consequences later. I hope now you see clearly what my position is.
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
Gary S
Posts: 239
Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:23 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Greta

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Gary S »

Elder wrote:There appears to be an emerging consensus (with the expected opposition, of course), that we do owe each other something.
I disagree with your conclusion that there is an emerging consensus that we do owe each other something. Most of the people who responded to your hypothetical, both here and on other forums, actually state that they would let the child drown. Considering that, don't they actually feel they owe nothing to the child?
Belinda
Premium Member
Posts: 13821
Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
Location: UK

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Belinda »

Elder asked:
where to draw the line between freedom and compassion?
This would be a matter of policy which has to change according to people's needs. The base line is that freedom is always the effect of compassion. This implies that freedom is impossible without compassion. The evidence for my claim is that history shows that cultures based upon slave economy have been low on compassion and high on excess of material freedom for the rich who profit from the labour of slaves. There is however a lack of freedom for the rich elite who must always be afraid for their material well- being when the slave economy collapses.

In the western world today we don't have slave economies but huge material freedom is a fact for the super-rich elites who will not suffer when the economic collapse happens; it will be, as always, the poor who suffer. This is why it's important to have party politics, so that the poor can have political strength. I claimed that freedom is always the effect of compassion. The rich person who has compassion will be more free than the rich person who lacks it because he will have a more willing, better educated, healthier, labour force to hand when the economy recovers.

Moreover investing national funds and expertise to improve conditions for the poor also increases the numbers of poor people who can benefit a meritocracy with their ability and expertise , and that increases freedom for both rich and poor.

This may sound materialistic but please remember that a society cannot rely on sentimentality to surmount real difficulties.

I have not yet addressed the fact that "the poor" are largely those underpaid and over worked employees of industries where labour is cheap. Such employees are very low on freedom: the industries that employ them are low on compassion.

Apart from nationalistic sentiments meritocratic justification for compassion extends also to compassion towards employee workers for multinational industries.
Last edited by Belinda on June 21st, 2015, 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Socialist
User avatar
Elder
Premium Member
Posts: 702
Joined: June 4th, 2015, 12:06 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Sandor Szathmari
Location: Canada

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Elder »

Misty wrote:...how do you know if the guy has a gun or not and may shoot you and the child for bugging him? Further more, if it was YOUR child, what kind of a crap father who was unable to help his own child in trouble would have let this scenario happen? ...... What if you did not have a gun, then what?
Misty, none of these questions and comments have any relevance to the question posed by the OP: "do we owe each other anything?" or "what would you do if you found yourself in that hypothetical situation?"
Misty wrote:...you do not know what you would do until you are in a specific event. ..... I can say what I HOPE I would do: I would appeal to his humanity and hope he has some empathy for others. As a parent I hope my adrenaline would offer me a way to save my child, all the while I would be kicking my own ass for allowing such a scenario to happen.
That would not save your child if the man refused. But you know that already.
Last edited by Elder on June 21st, 2015, 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
User avatar
MHopcroft1963
Posts: 62
Joined: January 9th, 2015, 11:33 pm

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by MHopcroft1963 »

You can't effectively compel someone to behave compassionately is they have no compassion -- at least on the personal level. Many people will stand and gawk at the man standing on the window ledge who right jump, but how many will lift a finger to get him off the ledge, or seek a way to catch him safely if he does jump (or slip up and fall unwillingly)?

That's where the collective Ayn Rand so despised comes in. A government collects a little bit of money from everybody, that most of the time they practically won't really miss. Some of that money is then used by society to do for people in difficulties what individuals cannot -- ensure that a person deprived of the ability to work does not starve to death in the streets, rescue the drowning child of the previous example (and the painting as well, which one man could not), send a fire crew to take the desperate man off the ledge, and so forth. Of course, not everything it does is quite so benevolent, but it is the force best equipped to aid in these situations. It is also the primary defense against the force and fraud Ayn Rand so hates by providing a punishment for its use -- such as compelling the snake-oil salesman to return the proceeds of his fraud to his victims, which Rand's ideal world would offer no means to do.

I work 20 hours a week. About 18% of my biweekly paycheck is taken out in various taxes. As I mentioned, I don't really miss it. Is the drowning child or the desperate man on the ledge somehow less important than an extra $86 in my pocket every two weeks?
Gary S
Posts: 239
Joined: May 7th, 2011, 3:23 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Greta

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Gary S »

Elder wrote:However, I would threaten him, without any hesitation, including shooting in the air, or into the water next to his boat. As alias said: I would do anything, short of killing him, to cause him to save the drowning child and worry about the consequences later. I hope now you see clearly what my position is.
Would you be in favor of a law which required the man in the boat to attempt in the rescue of the child? If so, would you be in favor of jailing the man, or perhaps forcing him to do community service, or maybe placing a monetary fine on him?
User avatar
Elder
Premium Member
Posts: 702
Joined: June 4th, 2015, 12:06 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Sandor Szathmari
Location: Canada

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Elder »

Gary S wrote:
Elder wrote:There appears to be an emerging consensus (with the expected opposition, of course), that we do owe each other something.
I disagree with your conclusion that there is an emerging consensus that we do owe each other something. Most of the people who responded to your hypothetical, both here and on other forums, actually state that they would let the child drown. Considering that, don't they actually feel they owe nothing to the child?
Quick tally so far:

Elder, Belinda, alias, MHopcroft1963, Logic_Ill, Newme are FOR saving the child

Misty, spiral, Gary are AGAINST.

Looks like a consensus emerging to me.
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
User avatar
Elder
Premium Member
Posts: 702
Joined: June 4th, 2015, 12:06 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Sandor Szathmari
Location: Canada

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Elder »

Gary S wrote:
Elder wrote:However, I would threaten him, without any hesitation, including shooting in the air, or into the water next to his boat. As alias said: I would do anything, short of killing him, to cause him to save the drowning child and worry about the consequences later. I hope now you see clearly what my position is.
Would you be in favor of a law which required the man in the boat to attempt in the rescue of the child? If so, would you be in favor of jailing the man, or perhaps forcing him to do community service, or maybe placing a monetary fine on him?
No, such a law would be unenforcable.

However, there are some laws in effect, in some countries, that require witnesses to an accident call for help and notify the authorities.
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
User avatar
Elder
Premium Member
Posts: 702
Joined: June 4th, 2015, 12:06 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Sandor Szathmari
Location: Canada

Re: Do we owe each other anything?

Post by Elder »

MHopcroft1963, Belinda, both of your posts deal with the way to decide how much help we should provide the poor and what the mechanism should be. However, this does not answer the question: where and how to draw the line between freedom and compassion?

I see only two options:

1. Fight it out in elections and keep changing the boundary from moment to moment.

2. Try to devise some ethical principle that all could agree on and then apply it without the usual bickering.

Has either of you heard of such an ethical principle that could be applied?
I don't debate with the evaders, the hopelessly 'confused' or the too lazy to think -- life is too short!
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021