She would vehemently disagree. If the man were one her protagonists, he might rescue the kid for his own ego gratification, a cash reward or to impress a girl - not because of duty or threat. But if a priceless painting floated by at the same time, that's what she believed he ought to rescue instead - for sure, if the drowning life-form were a dog.Gary S wrote:For clarification, a question: Would Ayn Rand agree that it is okay for a person to force the man in the boat to save that person's drowning child, or would she not agree?
Do we owe each other anything?
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
- MHopcroft1963
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
I'm pretty sure she would let the child drown, and some of her followers might go so far as to push it under.Gary S wrote:For clarification, a question: Would Ayn Rand agree that it is okay for a person to force the man in the boat to save that person's drowning child, or would she not agree?
Of course there are many varieties of force, and Rand's fictional "heroes" used many of them. What is more forceful then getting a bunch of armed men together and breaking into Fort Knox to "take back" the money John Galt's followers paid in taxes? Or bl;owing up the building you had designed, and that a lot of people worked very hard and invested a lot of money to build, in what is essentially a fit of pique?
Ayn Rand says you can't use force -- unless your a Nietzschean Superman. Then you can do whatever you want.
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
I mean, she would probably want him to save the picture, instead of a ghetto child. She would definitely and unambiguously want him to save a picture rather than a non-human. She would also despise him if he gave up a day a fishing to take care of any kind of familial or civic obligation.But if a priceless painting floated by at the same time, that's what she believed he ought to rescue instead - for sure, if the drowning life-form were a dog.
- Elder
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
That bring us to the next question of the OP: where to draw the line between freedom and compassion?
I know it is a Pandora's box I just opened, but it is a legitimate question.
For argument's sake, let's assume that we owe each other something.
How much -- where to draw the line?
Is there an ethical principle that would help us decide?
Or is it arbitrary and we fight it out tooth and nail and let the winners decide?
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
Elder, on the many forums where you have presented this topic, the vast majority of members who actually answered your hypothetical situation responded that they personally would not force the man to save the child. I believe that is your position also. What are the ramifications of this as related to the counter-example that was discussed in post 26 above?
On a side note, I do agree that "moral dilemma" hypotheticals have great value in forcing us to examine our beliefs. I am surprised to find this view is the minority view.
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
Will you be answering my posts #8 and #17?
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- Elder
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
Gary, what I said in the OP was that I would not have killed the man. However, I would threaten him, without any hesitation, including shooting in the air, or into the water next to his boat. As alias said: I would do anything, short of killing him, to cause him to save the drowning child and worry about the consequences later. I hope now you see clearly what my position is.Gary S wrote:.... they personally would not force the man to save the child. I believe that is your position also.
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
I disagree with your conclusion that there is an emerging consensus that we do owe each other something. Most of the people who responded to your hypothetical, both here and on other forums, actually state that they would let the child drown. Considering that, don't they actually feel they owe nothing to the child?Elder wrote:There appears to be an emerging consensus (with the expected opposition, of course), that we do owe each other something.
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
This would be a matter of policy which has to change according to people's needs. The base line is that freedom is always the effect of compassion. This implies that freedom is impossible without compassion. The evidence for my claim is that history shows that cultures based upon slave economy have been low on compassion and high on excess of material freedom for the rich who profit from the labour of slaves. There is however a lack of freedom for the rich elite who must always be afraid for their material well- being when the slave economy collapses.where to draw the line between freedom and compassion?
In the western world today we don't have slave economies but huge material freedom is a fact for the super-rich elites who will not suffer when the economic collapse happens; it will be, as always, the poor who suffer. This is why it's important to have party politics, so that the poor can have political strength. I claimed that freedom is always the effect of compassion. The rich person who has compassion will be more free than the rich person who lacks it because he will have a more willing, better educated, healthier, labour force to hand when the economy recovers.
Moreover investing national funds and expertise to improve conditions for the poor also increases the numbers of poor people who can benefit a meritocracy with their ability and expertise , and that increases freedom for both rich and poor.
This may sound materialistic but please remember that a society cannot rely on sentimentality to surmount real difficulties.
I have not yet addressed the fact that "the poor" are largely those underpaid and over worked employees of industries where labour is cheap. Such employees are very low on freedom: the industries that employ them are low on compassion.
Apart from nationalistic sentiments meritocratic justification for compassion extends also to compassion towards employee workers for multinational industries.
- Elder
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
Misty, none of these questions and comments have any relevance to the question posed by the OP: "do we owe each other anything?" or "what would you do if you found yourself in that hypothetical situation?"Misty wrote:...how do you know if the guy has a gun or not and may shoot you and the child for bugging him? Further more, if it was YOUR child, what kind of a crap father who was unable to help his own child in trouble would have let this scenario happen? ...... What if you did not have a gun, then what?
That would not save your child if the man refused. But you know that already.Misty wrote:...you do not know what you would do until you are in a specific event. ..... I can say what I HOPE I would do: I would appeal to his humanity and hope he has some empathy for others. As a parent I hope my adrenaline would offer me a way to save my child, all the while I would be kicking my own ass for allowing such a scenario to happen.
- MHopcroft1963
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
That's where the collective Ayn Rand so despised comes in. A government collects a little bit of money from everybody, that most of the time they practically won't really miss. Some of that money is then used by society to do for people in difficulties what individuals cannot -- ensure that a person deprived of the ability to work does not starve to death in the streets, rescue the drowning child of the previous example (and the painting as well, which one man could not), send a fire crew to take the desperate man off the ledge, and so forth. Of course, not everything it does is quite so benevolent, but it is the force best equipped to aid in these situations. It is also the primary defense against the force and fraud Ayn Rand so hates by providing a punishment for its use -- such as compelling the snake-oil salesman to return the proceeds of his fraud to his victims, which Rand's ideal world would offer no means to do.
I work 20 hours a week. About 18% of my biweekly paycheck is taken out in various taxes. As I mentioned, I don't really miss it. Is the drowning child or the desperate man on the ledge somehow less important than an extra $86 in my pocket every two weeks?
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
Would you be in favor of a law which required the man in the boat to attempt in the rescue of the child? If so, would you be in favor of jailing the man, or perhaps forcing him to do community service, or maybe placing a monetary fine on him?Elder wrote:However, I would threaten him, without any hesitation, including shooting in the air, or into the water next to his boat. As alias said: I would do anything, short of killing him, to cause him to save the drowning child and worry about the consequences later. I hope now you see clearly what my position is.
- Elder
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
Quick tally so far:Gary S wrote:I disagree with your conclusion that there is an emerging consensus that we do owe each other something. Most of the people who responded to your hypothetical, both here and on other forums, actually state that they would let the child drown. Considering that, don't they actually feel they owe nothing to the child?Elder wrote:There appears to be an emerging consensus (with the expected opposition, of course), that we do owe each other something.
Elder, Belinda, alias, MHopcroft1963, Logic_Ill, Newme are FOR saving the child
Misty, spiral, Gary are AGAINST.
Looks like a consensus emerging to me.
- Elder
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
No, such a law would be unenforcable.Gary S wrote:Would you be in favor of a law which required the man in the boat to attempt in the rescue of the child? If so, would you be in favor of jailing the man, or perhaps forcing him to do community service, or maybe placing a monetary fine on him?Elder wrote:However, I would threaten him, without any hesitation, including shooting in the air, or into the water next to his boat. As alias said: I would do anything, short of killing him, to cause him to save the drowning child and worry about the consequences later. I hope now you see clearly what my position is.
However, there are some laws in effect, in some countries, that require witnesses to an accident call for help and notify the authorities.
- Elder
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Re: Do we owe each other anything?
I see only two options:
1. Fight it out in elections and keep changing the boundary from moment to moment.
2. Try to devise some ethical principle that all could agree on and then apply it without the usual bickering.
Has either of you heard of such an ethical principle that could be applied?
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