Free will

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
Mans
Posts: 73
Joined: August 5th, 2012, 3:52 pm

Re: Free will

Post by Mans »

Free will is not an absolute thing for man. In some situations the will of God interfere in the events and prevent the will of man to reach its goal.
Gnosis
Posts: 40
Joined: January 5th, 2013, 11:15 pm

Re: Free will

Post by Gnosis »

Curiouspaul wrote: August 26th, 2016, 10:43 pm Isn't it about time as a society that we come up with a definite definition for free will and decide whether it is real or not.

For a long time I have suffered depression and one of the things that really gets me down is regrets, but since I discovered free will my be an illusion I have not dwelled on regrets so much because if free will is an illusion the nmy life was always going to end up where it is now, so there is nothing I could have done to prevent the things that I regret.

So the discussion of free will could be quite important to people suffering from depression.

Also, we send criminals to prison for life or execute them on the belief they chose their crime. But if free will is an illusion then seeking revenge by executing people or sending them to prison for life is just as bad as when people burnt women alive believing them to be witches, because it was a punishment based on a belief, not a fact.

Humanity needs an answer.
The upside of not believing in a free will is that you are free of regrets, the downside is that you lack any meaning or purpose. Meaning exists when we make decisions of how we want the future to turn out, if we cannot make decisions then there is no meaning and we are no different than complex rocks bouncing off each other, this leads to nihilism which can lead people to really dark places.

For example, why not set of an atomic apocalypse? Not like I had a choice or that it matters. So don't be so quick to wish to dispense with regret and free will as that will have it's consequences. Also what do you mean that is is bad to persecute people and send them to prison? If you disbelieve in free will you have to go all out, the prisons exist not out of a will but out of a predetermined coincidence, some little girls were predetermined to be raped and killed, and their killers were predetermined to do what they did. You can see how this type of thought train really quickly turns to a ****-show. There are even studies that people perform worse on tests if they are told that free will does not exist.

If you do not believe in free will why live at all? Besides the point of whether free will exists or not your desire for the whole of humanity to reject it is bloody selfish, as only the ones suffering from regret would be relieved, whilst those who made good decisions and live a good life would suffer depression since their choices and apparent effort would be just illusions.

I could have answered why I think free-will almost inevitably exists, but I think talking about the consequences of it not existing is better in this context since your bias is very clear, you do not want to find out whether free will exists or not, you want to find evidence that it doesn't because it is inconvenient to you.
Kaz_1983
Posts: 432
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Free will

Post by Kaz_1983 »

If the ability to choose otherwise doesn't exist - if the world is determined, how can we be held morally responsible?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

Kaz_1983 wrote: November 17th, 2019, 6:16 am If the ability to choose otherwise doesn't exist - if the world is determined, how can we be held morally responsible?
Exactly, ethics disappears in a puff of smoke.
"As usual... it depends."
Leibniz1699
Posts: 36
Joined: November 21st, 2019, 9:09 pm

Re: Free will

Post by Leibniz1699 »

LuckyR wrote: November 18th, 2019, 2:19 am
Kaz_1983 wrote: November 17th, 2019, 6:16 am If the ability to choose otherwise doesn't exist - if the world is determined, how can we be held morally responsible?
Exactly, ethics disappears in a puff of smoke.
I disagree - under determinism humans are biologically hardwired to act like they do have choices. Humans literally have no choice but to act like they have a choice so the debate is ultimately rendered moot. The only thing that has changed is that humans have become aware of this fact.

Entire civilizations and ethical systems have been created by deterministic natural processes of biology. That is an impressive feat worth appreciating. Ideas of morality and personal responsibility are crucial evolutionary traits that have served to control impulsive and destructive behavior thereby allowng complex societies to emerge and thrive.

The problem is people forget that it is nature's decision as to what happens - not that of individual biological egos. To achieve true freedom requires associating onself with the total sum of existence which is completely free of constraints.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

Leibniz1699 wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 12:13 am
LuckyR wrote: November 18th, 2019, 2:19 am

Exactly, ethics disappears in a puff of smoke.
I disagree - under determinism humans are biologically hardwired to act like they do have choices. Humans literally have no choice but to act like they have a choice so the debate is ultimately rendered moot. The only thing that has changed is that humans have become aware of this fact.

Entire civilizations and ethical systems have been created by deterministic natural processes of biology. That is an impressive feat worth appreciating. Ideas of morality and personal responsibility are crucial evolutionary traits that have served to control impulsive and destructive behavior thereby allowng complex societies to emerge and thrive.

The problem is people forget that it is nature's decision as to what happens - not that of individual biological egos. To achieve true freedom requires associating onself with the total sum of existence which is completely free of constraints.
That's what you've got? That's like the argument that the earth is 10,000 years old and the dinosaur bones were just put there by god to fool us into thinking that it is hundreds of millions of years old. Just foolin ya!
"As usual... it depends."
Leibniz1699
Posts: 36
Joined: November 21st, 2019, 9:09 pm

Re: Free will

Post by Leibniz1699 »

If there were two hypothetical worlds - One where free will is the case and another where determinism is the case they would be indistinguishable from each other. In both cases people would make decisions and choices for the reasons that they make them. Decisions to hold people accountable for bad choices would also be made for the reasons they are made in both hypothetical worlds.

In both cases only one decision will be made and there will be a reason for why they were made.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: Free will

Post by creation »

If 'free will' is defined as 'ability to choose', then free will exists, as all humans have the ability to choose, and to do so freely.

But although all human have the ability to choose free willingly, they are limited by their choices.

Therefore, humans have free will but the choices from which they can freely choose from is limited.

So, humans although have free will they are deterministic in nature.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

Leibniz1699 wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 8:48 am If there were two hypothetical worlds - One where free will is the case and another where determinism is the case they would be indistinguishable from each other. In both cases people would make decisions and choices for the reasons that they make them. Decisions to hold people accountable for bad choices would also be made for the reasons they are made in both hypothetical worlds.

In both cases only one decision will be made and there will be a reason for why they were made.
Now I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
chewybrian
Posts: 1594
Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
Location: Florida man

Re: Free will

Post by chewybrian »

LuckyR wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 2:26 am
Leibniz1699 wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 8:48 am If there were two hypothetical worlds - One where free will is the case and another where determinism is the case they would be indistinguishable from each other. In both cases people would make decisions and choices for the reasons that they make them. Decisions to hold people accountable for bad choices would also be made for the reasons they are made in both hypothetical worlds.

In both cases only one decision will be made and there will be a reason for why they were made.
Now I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.
But, don't you act on your beliefs? Won't people act differently if they believe they can make their own decisions, instead of believing they are fully determined by past events?
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Leibniz1699
Posts: 36
Joined: November 21st, 2019, 9:09 pm

Re: Free will

Post by Leibniz1699 »

LuckyR wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 2:26 am
Leibniz1699 wrote: November 22nd, 2019, 8:48 am If there were two hypothetical worlds - One where free will is the case and another where determinism is the case they would be indistinguishable from each other. In both cases people would make decisions and choices for the reasons that they make them. Decisions to hold people accountable for bad choices would also be made for the reasons they are made in both hypothetical worlds.

In both cases only one decision will be made and there will be a reason for why they were made.
Now I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.
My analogy was to show that if one believes they have free will they still get what they think they want under determinism - that is the ability to make a specific decision for the reason they make them. For something to have a reason it must be able to be traced backed to prior events which themselves can be explained as the result of prior causes. Because decisions are part of a causal chain they cannot be free in a metaphysical sense.

If free will was truly the case the world would be chaotic and unintelligible because events would happen for no reason. There would be no way to explain events as there would be no prior causes to them. Morality and ethics certainly could not exist in such a world because everything would be spontaneous and could not be explained in terms of prior causes.

Believing in free will though is an important trait of evolution that has worked evidenced by the fact that the trait has been passed down to the current day.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7094
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Free will

Post by Sculptor1 »

Leibniz1699 wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 9:43 am
LuckyR wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 2:26 am

Now I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.
My analogy was to show that if one believes they have free will they still get what they think they want under determinism - that is the ability to make a specific decision for the reason they make them. For something to have a reason it must be able to be traced backed to prior events which themselves can be explained as the result of prior causes. Because decisions are part of a causal chain they cannot be free in a metaphysical sense.

If free will was truly the case the world would be chaotic and unintelligible because events would happen for no reason. There would be no way to explain events as there would be no prior causes to them. Morality and ethics certainly could not exist in such a world because everything would be spontaneous and could not be explained in terms of prior causes.

Believing in free will though is an important trait of evolution that has worked evidenced by the fact that the trait has been passed down to the current day.
Agree with all but the last paragraph as the concept of free will has not been around for long, and a denial of it, or ignorance of it has not impeded progress at all.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 5:47 am
LuckyR wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 2:26 am

Now I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.
But, don't you act on your beliefs? Won't people act differently if they believe they can make their own decisions, instead of believing they are fully determined by past events?
Of course they could be INFLUENCED by that sort of idea. But even the choice of doing what you propose is essentially free will (or perhaps fakey "Determinism" that is identical to free will).
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

Leibniz1699 wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 9:43 am
LuckyR wrote: November 23rd, 2019, 2:26 am

Now I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.
My analogy was to show that if one believes they have free will they still get what they think they want under determinism - that is the ability to make a specific decision for the reason they make them. For something to have a reason it must be able to be traced backed to prior events which themselves can be explained as the result of prior causes. Because decisions are part of a causal chain they cannot be free in a metaphysical sense.

If free will was truly the case the world would be chaotic and unintelligible because events would happen for no reason. There would be no way to explain events as there would be no prior causes to them. Morality and ethics certainly could not exist in such a world because everything would be spontaneous and could not be explained in terms of prior causes.

Believing in free will though is an important trait of evolution that has worked evidenced by the fact that the trait has been passed down to the current day.
Huh? Free will does not require a choice between an infinite number of possibilities. Even a choice between two options, if the choice is unable to be predicted, is an expression of the freedom to make that choice.

Free will similarly does not require decisions have no cause, rather not a single, predictable cause.
"As usual... it depends."
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021