Free will
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Re: Free will
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Re: Free will
The upside of not believing in a free will is that you are free of regrets, the downside is that you lack any meaning or purpose. Meaning exists when we make decisions of how we want the future to turn out, if we cannot make decisions then there is no meaning and we are no different than complex rocks bouncing off each other, this leads to nihilism which can lead people to really dark places.Curiouspaul wrote: ↑August 26th, 2016, 10:43 pm Isn't it about time as a society that we come up with a definite definition for free will and decide whether it is real or not.
For a long time I have suffered depression and one of the things that really gets me down is regrets, but since I discovered free will my be an illusion I have not dwelled on regrets so much because if free will is an illusion the nmy life was always going to end up where it is now, so there is nothing I could have done to prevent the things that I regret.
So the discussion of free will could be quite important to people suffering from depression.
Also, we send criminals to prison for life or execute them on the belief they chose their crime. But if free will is an illusion then seeking revenge by executing people or sending them to prison for life is just as bad as when people burnt women alive believing them to be witches, because it was a punishment based on a belief, not a fact.
Humanity needs an answer.
For example, why not set of an atomic apocalypse? Not like I had a choice or that it matters. So don't be so quick to wish to dispense with regret and free will as that will have it's consequences. Also what do you mean that is is bad to persecute people and send them to prison? If you disbelieve in free will you have to go all out, the prisons exist not out of a will but out of a predetermined coincidence, some little girls were predetermined to be raped and killed, and their killers were predetermined to do what they did. You can see how this type of thought train really quickly turns to a ****-show. There are even studies that people perform worse on tests if they are told that free will does not exist.
If you do not believe in free will why live at all? Besides the point of whether free will exists or not your desire for the whole of humanity to reject it is bloody selfish, as only the ones suffering from regret would be relieved, whilst those who made good decisions and live a good life would suffer depression since their choices and apparent effort would be just illusions.
I could have answered why I think free-will almost inevitably exists, but I think talking about the consequences of it not existing is better in this context since your bias is very clear, you do not want to find out whether free will exists or not, you want to find evidence that it doesn't because it is inconvenient to you.
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Re: Free will
- LuckyR
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Re: Free will
I disagree - under determinism humans are biologically hardwired to act like they do have choices. Humans literally have no choice but to act like they have a choice so the debate is ultimately rendered moot. The only thing that has changed is that humans have become aware of this fact.
Entire civilizations and ethical systems have been created by deterministic natural processes of biology. That is an impressive feat worth appreciating. Ideas of morality and personal responsibility are crucial evolutionary traits that have served to control impulsive and destructive behavior thereby allowng complex societies to emerge and thrive.
The problem is people forget that it is nature's decision as to what happens - not that of individual biological egos. To achieve true freedom requires associating onself with the total sum of existence which is completely free of constraints.
- LuckyR
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Re: Free will
That's what you've got? That's like the argument that the earth is 10,000 years old and the dinosaur bones were just put there by god to fool us into thinking that it is hundreds of millions of years old. Just foolin ya!Leibniz1699 wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2019, 12:13 amI disagree - under determinism humans are biologically hardwired to act like they do have choices. Humans literally have no choice but to act like they have a choice so the debate is ultimately rendered moot. The only thing that has changed is that humans have become aware of this fact.
Entire civilizations and ethical systems have been created by deterministic natural processes of biology. That is an impressive feat worth appreciating. Ideas of morality and personal responsibility are crucial evolutionary traits that have served to control impulsive and destructive behavior thereby allowng complex societies to emerge and thrive.
The problem is people forget that it is nature's decision as to what happens - not that of individual biological egos. To achieve true freedom requires associating onself with the total sum of existence which is completely free of constraints.
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Re: Free will
In both cases only one decision will be made and there will be a reason for why they were made.
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Re: Free will
But although all human have the ability to choose free willingly, they are limited by their choices.
Therefore, humans have free will but the choices from which they can freely choose from is limited.
So, humans although have free will they are deterministic in nature.
- LuckyR
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Re: Free will
Now I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.Leibniz1699 wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2019, 8:48 am If there were two hypothetical worlds - One where free will is the case and another where determinism is the case they would be indistinguishable from each other. In both cases people would make decisions and choices for the reasons that they make them. Decisions to hold people accountable for bad choices would also be made for the reasons they are made in both hypothetical worlds.
In both cases only one decision will be made and there will be a reason for why they were made.
- chewybrian
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Re: Free will
But, don't you act on your beliefs? Won't people act differently if they believe they can make their own decisions, instead of believing they are fully determined by past events?LuckyR wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2019, 2:26 amNow I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.Leibniz1699 wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2019, 8:48 am If there were two hypothetical worlds - One where free will is the case and another where determinism is the case they would be indistinguishable from each other. In both cases people would make decisions and choices for the reasons that they make them. Decisions to hold people accountable for bad choices would also be made for the reasons they are made in both hypothetical worlds.
In both cases only one decision will be made and there will be a reason for why they were made.
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Re: Free will
My analogy was to show that if one believes they have free will they still get what they think they want under determinism - that is the ability to make a specific decision for the reason they make them. For something to have a reason it must be able to be traced backed to prior events which themselves can be explained as the result of prior causes. Because decisions are part of a causal chain they cannot be free in a metaphysical sense.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2019, 2:26 amNow I completely agree with you there. "Determinism" is externally identical to free will, thus since identical to it, may as well be it.Leibniz1699 wrote: ↑November 22nd, 2019, 8:48 am If there were two hypothetical worlds - One where free will is the case and another where determinism is the case they would be indistinguishable from each other. In both cases people would make decisions and choices for the reasons that they make them. Decisions to hold people accountable for bad choices would also be made for the reasons they are made in both hypothetical worlds.
In both cases only one decision will be made and there will be a reason for why they were made.
If free will was truly the case the world would be chaotic and unintelligible because events would happen for no reason. There would be no way to explain events as there would be no prior causes to them. Morality and ethics certainly could not exist in such a world because everything would be spontaneous and could not be explained in terms of prior causes.
Believing in free will though is an important trait of evolution that has worked evidenced by the fact that the trait has been passed down to the current day.
- Sculptor1
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Re: Free will
Agree with all but the last paragraph as the concept of free will has not been around for long, and a denial of it, or ignorance of it has not impeded progress at all.Leibniz1699 wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2019, 9:43 amMy analogy was to show that if one believes they have free will they still get what they think they want under determinism - that is the ability to make a specific decision for the reason they make them. For something to have a reason it must be able to be traced backed to prior events which themselves can be explained as the result of prior causes. Because decisions are part of a causal chain they cannot be free in a metaphysical sense.
If free will was truly the case the world would be chaotic and unintelligible because events would happen for no reason. There would be no way to explain events as there would be no prior causes to them. Morality and ethics certainly could not exist in such a world because everything would be spontaneous and could not be explained in terms of prior causes.
Believing in free will though is an important trait of evolution that has worked evidenced by the fact that the trait has been passed down to the current day.
- LuckyR
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Re: Free will
Of course they could be INFLUENCED by that sort of idea. But even the choice of doing what you propose is essentially free will (or perhaps fakey "Determinism" that is identical to free will).chewybrian wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2019, 5:47 amBut, don't you act on your beliefs? Won't people act differently if they believe they can make their own decisions, instead of believing they are fully determined by past events?
- LuckyR
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Re: Free will
Huh? Free will does not require a choice between an infinite number of possibilities. Even a choice between two options, if the choice is unable to be predicted, is an expression of the freedom to make that choice.Leibniz1699 wrote: ↑November 23rd, 2019, 9:43 amMy analogy was to show that if one believes they have free will they still get what they think they want under determinism - that is the ability to make a specific decision for the reason they make them. For something to have a reason it must be able to be traced backed to prior events which themselves can be explained as the result of prior causes. Because decisions are part of a causal chain they cannot be free in a metaphysical sense.
If free will was truly the case the world would be chaotic and unintelligible because events would happen for no reason. There would be no way to explain events as there would be no prior causes to them. Morality and ethics certainly could not exist in such a world because everything would be spontaneous and could not be explained in terms of prior causes.
Believing in free will though is an important trait of evolution that has worked evidenced by the fact that the trait has been passed down to the current day.
Free will similarly does not require decisions have no cause, rather not a single, predictable cause.
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