Free will

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LuckyR
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Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: September 28th, 2018, 10:56 am
LuckyR wrote: September 27th, 2018, 4:01 pm Not so much. There is a third path: namely that things (meaning neurologic decision making, not the behavior of billiard balls) can have a cause, but the cause is not predetermined.
Do you mean a religious explanation, or something else.? If something else, what exactly? Is the non-predetermined cause coming from outside the agent, or inside? Is there a free agent at all in this scenario?
Nope, not a cloud fairy. I mean a simply this, human decision making is caused by the actions of numerous neurons, whose conclusions while influenced by known factors, is partially unpredictable due to a level of complexity that defies computation. Identical in action to the behavior of the weather.
"As usual... it depends."
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Frewah
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Re: Free will

Post by Frewah »

Misty wrote: September 21st, 2016, 7:33 pm Humans have 'will.' It is not free, meaning without influence/persuasion. Human 'will' is made up of all the knowledge one absorbs coupled with how one perceives how they have been treated by all who came into contact with them, meaning ones emotional/mental health. Human 'will' = knowledge + emotional/mental health + influence/persuasion. If 'human will' was 'free' it would be free from influence/persuasion.
I think you’re spot on. A will without any influence woud be ”free” but would it with be useful? No better than using a dice. Seymour Cray came up with a free will algorithm for buying a car. Simply go to a nearby dealer and buy the car closest to the door where you came in. It could be a Yugo, it could be a Porsche. If you completely ignore factors that you don’t like such as your credit worthiness is limited and you think that your will is more fre, you will end up in trouble.

The pursuit of free will may explain why so many people are willing to go into debt just to get a new iphone or similar. Many don’t care if they get a lower credit score.

I think our will is free as in beer but not as in speech. It’s a gift that we have a will at all and something we can enjoy. But it could put you in real trouble if you say whatever you feel to just about anyone.
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Thrylix
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Re: Free will

Post by Thrylix »

Haha, not true. I can fart at will.
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Re: Free will

Post by Wmhoerr »

It would be great if there was an answer. The problem is that free will is linked with the idea of determinism, which is in turn linked with possible randomness in quantum mechanics. And few people are brave enough to say that they completely understand quantum mechanics.

But l might have a solution. Before the big bang, it is thought by many that there was no matter, space or time. It this case, the big bang must be an effect without a cause. (The alternative is that if all effects have causes, then there was never a beginning and so the world has existed infinitely. Uumm!) That would make the big bang a random event, which means that determinism cannot be true and so there must be free will. What do you think?
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Felix
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Re: Free will

Post by Felix »

"It this case, the big bang must be an effect without a cause... That would make the big bang a random event."

Two different porcupines: random means having no apparent order or pattern, not having no apparent cause, although one must uncover the former to find the latter. The menu states that one must order the disorderly universe plate to get the side order of free will.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Fdesilva
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Re: Free will

Post by Fdesilva »

Here is my take on Free Will. First of all we need to define what we mean by Free will. I will deal with one possible definitions.

Free-will : Ability to change an otherwise deterministic universe.

First let me make clear what I mean by a deterministic universe. Consider the state of every atom/molecule in the whole universe at some fixed time. Say 12AM UTC on the 1/1/2019 = t(a). The laws of physics/chemistry together with the state t(a) will determine the state of each of these atoms/molecules for all subsequent times. By the same token the same laws applied to the past will determine what the state of each atom/molecule was prior to t(a).

Now when we try to find the state of the universe in the past in this way, we discover the big bang or a single event at which the universe came into existence lets designate it as t(0). At this event the size of the universe was minuscule. Time and space came into existence for the first time at this event. The event itself is a singularity as far as the laws of physics and chemistry goes.

What that means is that this event is perfectly compatible with any subsequent state. That is the state of the universe at t(a) could have been something different to what it is and it would still be compatible with the big bang event t(0). However soon after the big bang once the universe has taken a state then all subsequent states will be determined by it.

Ok so lets imagine what we have as a model for the universe over space and time from t(0) to t(a). It will be a 4 Dimensional structure. Now free-will would be defined as the ability to change this 4 dimensional structure at t(a). That is you change the state at t(a) but in doing so you also change all states prior to that right up to t(0).

Now my hypotheses is that within the human mind acts of free-will work by changing the present but in doing so also changing the past. The degree of change to the past is minuscule due to the increase in entropy from past to present. What I do believe is that the human mind can change the curvature of space time just as mass does in creating gravity.

The main evidence I have for this is that humans are aware of simultaneous events. To be aware is to connect simultaneous events. Yet nothing within space time can connect simultaneous events. As such human awareness must come from outside space time thus enabling it to be changed 4 dimensionally as described above
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MrSpock-mm
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Re: Free will

Post by MrSpock-mm »

Free will was limited when the human race agreed to incarnate on Earth. This happened around 300,000 years ago at the urging of the Drako civilization. All the events were symbolically described in the novel "Wizard of Oz".
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Re: Free will

Post by Kaz_1983 »

I don't believe free will exists
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LuckyR
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Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

Kaz_1983 wrote: August 15th, 2019, 5:47 am I don't believe free will exists
Did you decide that on your own, or was it predetermined by the subatomic particle distribution at the big bang?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Free will

Post by Kaz_1983 »

LuckyR wrote: August 16th, 2019, 8:23 pm
Kaz_1983 wrote: August 15th, 2019, 5:47 am I don't believe free will exists
Did you decide that on your own, or was it predetermined by the subatomic particle distribution at the big bang?
Seeing as though free will doesn't exist, it was predetermined I suppose. :mrgreen:
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LuckyR
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Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

Kaz_1983 wrote: August 17th, 2019, 5:06 am
LuckyR wrote: August 16th, 2019, 8:23 pm

Did you decide that on your own, or was it predetermined by the subatomic particle distribution at the big bang?
Seeing as though free will doesn't exist, it was predetermined I suppose. :mrgreen:
I disagree, I believe you are not an automaton whose actions and beliefs were predetermined by the random effects of the big bang. I believe you made a conscious (though incorrect) decision about your opinion on Free Will based on your life experience and intellect.
"As usual... it depends."
Kaz_1983
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Re: Free will

Post by Kaz_1983 »

LuckyR wrote: August 17th, 2019, 10:29 pm I disagree, I believe you are not an automaton whose actions and beliefs were predetermined by the random effects of the big bang. I believe you made a conscious (though incorrect) decision about your opinion on Free Will based on your life experience and intellect.
So your desires are based on life experiences too? If so, you are a product of them I suppose.
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Re: Free will

Post by Kaz_1983 »

It's the chicken or egg scenario all over again.. are your desires determined by your life experiences or are your life experiences determined by your desires.
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LuckyR
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Re: Free will

Post by LuckyR »

Kaz_1983 wrote: August 22nd, 2019, 5:58 am It's the chicken or egg scenario all over again.. are your desires determined by your life experiences or are your life experiences determined by your desires.
Yes and no. I fully accept that my past experiences INFLUENCE my desires. That is they are part of the mixture of factors that go into my Free Will choice of my decision making.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Free will

Post by psyreporter »

Curiouspaul wrote: August 26th, 2016, 10:43 pm Also, we send criminals to prison for life or execute them on the belief they chose their crime. But if free will is an illusion then seeking revenge by executing people or sending them to prison for life is just as bad as when people burnt women alive believing them to be witches, because it was a punishment based on a belief, not a fact.
It is a interesting question. In The Netherlands I've invested in reporting about psychiatry from a critical outsiders perspective (non expert, simply theory based and no links with business, religion or politics).

In The Netherlands and Belgium people can be prosecuted differently on the basis of a psychiatric diagnosis. The Human Rights Counsel of the United Nations has declared it as form of discrimination which makes it a contentious practice.

Psychiatry has a growing influence in criminal prosecution. There is a movement that believes that humans can be reduced to accidental chemistry in the brains and that there is no free will or guilt. According to this movement, criminal law should ideally be replaced by psychiatric treatment and preventive psychiatric measures.

Psychiatric diagnoses are demonstrably controversial. This leads to a situation of arbitrariness that authoritative lawyers in the Netherlands have been resisting for years with, among other things, a boycott of the psychiatric "TBS" measure (forensic psychiatric imprisonment). Psychiatry's influence leads to absurd situations in which dozens of psychiatrists are debating in the media whether a perpetrator is diagnosed with schizophrenia or not, like with the Belgian child murderer Kim de G. In the case of Kim de G., 12 psychiatrists ultimately made conflicting diagnoses. Also in a Dutch case nicknamed "Bijenkorf mother case" the arbitrariness became visible, in which the mother who killed her child by throwing her of the balustrade in a shopping mall was diagnosed with a 'one-off psychosis' back in time so that she received no punishment and no psychiatric treatment, and was therefore simply released after the crime. The OM spoke of a "defective psychiatric examination".

The German postman Gert Postel, after a disastrous treatment of his mother, wanted to show that psychiatry is a scam and successfully infiltrated the forensic psychiatric establishment and was almost appointed professor of forensic psychiatry and director of a forensic clinic with self-made diagnoses.

Source: Skepsis - dot - nl: Postman becomes a court psychiatrist
Postel: "In psychiatry one can explain everything, but then everything in a plausible way: as a psychiatrist you can claim the opposite, but also the opposite of the opposite. Those who master the psychiatric vocabulary, can endlessly continue to debit nonsense and thereby pack graduates. "

Postel: "It is a matter of psychiatric speech acrobatics and a little staging." Postel: "I thought to myself: who is the scammer here: they or me?" [More]
According to the United Nations, selective prosecution based on a psychiatric diagnosis is a form of discrimination. Psychiatric diagnoses are demonstrably controversial, which also makes it an unjust practice for convicted persons and people in society.

Essentially, the "wet finger" of a psychiatrist determines whether a person can be jailed for life while they can also release convicts with a life sentence.

An example is the story of a 14-year-old boy from The Hague, The Netherlands who, in a quarrel with peers, threatened them with a pocket knife. He was sentenced with youth TBS and on his 18th birthday he had to "pray" to be free again (no sight on a date for release, his life essentially in the hands of arbitrariness of psychiatrists). In the meantime, life-long convicts have the prospect of being released through TBS. An example is a mass murderer who in 2009, despite an imposed life sentence, was released for years and had founded a family through psychiatric leave.

A TV report by criminal reporter Peter R. de Vries regarding child murderer Koos H. who was sentenced to life imprisonment and tried to "silently return to society" through TBS, also revealed the situation.

The influence of psychiatry within the legal system logically has the effect that people have already lost the basic respect as a human being before they have committed a crime, with as a result that they will commit a crime faster. The basic respect that people share is an emotional threshold that ensures that someone has something to lose and that encourages humanity.

A large study by the University of Oxford into the link between the diagnosis of schizophrenia and criminal behavior among 96,000 people has shown that the risk of violent crimes is barely 1.2x as high compared to the "normal" population. This means that there is no scientific basis for selective prosecution of people on the basis of a psychiatric diagnosis. The risk of crime is almost the same for "normal" people.

In my opinion it is impossible that the human mind is the result of accidental chemistry because of the logic that the physical cannot be at the basis of itself. That would mean that the idea that man is a meaningless accidental chemical process that psychiatry can master as a science is absurd.
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