Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

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GE Morton
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: June 17th, 2019, 2:51 pm
Do you want to talk about use of English through the centuries, or do you want to talk about history of ideas?
The title of the thread is, "Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?" So, yes, we're talking about the meaning of an English phrase, not about the origins and history of various moral theses.
On a website called "Philososophy Discussion Forums" I don't have to provide documentation for any theory which is well known to philosophers and historians of religion. Try googling Axial Age.
Well, if you don't, then readers must judge your claims unsupported. I doubt you'll find any mention of "rights" (in the sense of a pseudo-property imputed to persons to denote an entitlement) in any of the writings usually cited in the "Axial Age" literature.
When I wrote "ontic" I referred to ontology as a main branch of metaphysics. Your discussion (above) is concerned with what I'd call definitions.
What did you mean by, "Rights have no ontic existence"? As I said, by definition a right exists if certain facts are true. Alfie is a "father" if certain facts are true about Alfie. Does fatherhood have an "ontic existence"?
Oh, no. Moral universality has nothing to do with the value of anything. It simply means that a moral theory and the principles and rules it generates apply equally to all agents in a moral field.
Yes, and when we discuss principles and rules we evaluate them. For instance the principle of universal health care applies to all. By comparison the principle of health care as limited to those who have paid into the insurance scheme is not universal health care.
That is true. But who has health care is not a moral principle. That everyone has a "right" to health care is a moral thesis -- which is false, per the classical understanding of what "rights" are. You can claim a "right" only to things you have acquired without inflicting loss or injury on others. Since health care requires the services of other people, you are claiming a "right" that others serve you. I.e., that others are your slaves. That, of course, violates the precept that everyone has a natural right to himself --- to his own body, his time, his efforts, and his talents --- a precept considered to be universal.
GE Morton
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by GE Morton »

PS: You can't claim "rights" to things that require the services of other people, or the products of their labor and talents, unless they've entered into some sort of contract or agreement with you to supply those goods or services, and you have satisfied whatever obligations you assumed per that agreement.

BTW, did my explanation of the meaning of "natural rights" clear that up for you?
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Sculptor1
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Sculptor1 »

GE Morton wrote: June 17th, 2019, 7:21 pm PS: You can't claim "rights" to things that require the services of other people, or the products of their labor and talents, unless they've entered into some sort of contract or agreement with you to supply those goods or services, and you have satisfied whatever obligations you assumed per that agreement.

BTW, did my explanation of the meaning of "natural rights" clear that up for you?
No contract is necessary to treat other humans with the respect that you expect of them. It's just pretty straightforward categorical imperative.
You can just be nice. I know this may be alien to your thinking.

And I think the Categorical Imperative is one of those things which are allocated as a natural right. Since nature provides no rights, the only possible use of the term is that which humans determine as a natural right.
Natural Rights is what people say they are since nature is mute on the subject.
Unless you believe in God, then natural rights are what you say god says are natural rights.
Belindi
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by Belindi »

GEMorton wrote:
What did you mean by, "Rights have no ontic existence"? As I said, by definition a right exists if certain facts are true. Alfie is a "father" if certain facts are true about Alfie. Does fatherhood have an "ontic existence"?
Father literally always implies a man who sired offspring.A man who sired offspring literally always implies father. Tautology.
Rights is being debated it's not tautological.

I guess most readers would assume that the OP meant to debate natural and man made rights.

'Ontic': relating to entities and the facts about them; relating to real as opposed to phenomenal existence.
GE Morton
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by GE Morton »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 18th, 2019, 3:55 am
No contract is necessary to treat other humans with the respect that you expect of them.
Treating others with respect does not entail that I must serve them. On the contrary --- I show you respect by allowing you to allowing you to live your life as you please, without interference from me, as long as you reciprocate. I do not show you respect by forcing you to serve me or submit to my demands, by treating you as a means to my ends.
It's just pretty straightforward categorical imperative.
Oh, certainly not. The Categorical Imperative commands, "Always act so that the principle upon which you acted could be made a universal law." A universal law that everyone may force everyone else to serve them instantly results in Hobbes' bellum omnium contra omnes.
And I think the Categorical Imperative is one of those things which are allocated as a natural right. Since nature provides no rights, the only possible use of the term is that which humans determine as a natural right.
Natural Rights is what people say they are since nature is mute on the subject.
Unless you believe in God, then natural rights are what you say god says are natural rights.
Apparently you didn't read the definition of "natural rights" given above. The term doesn't mean that Nature provided the rights. It means that Nature provided certain things to which rights may be legitimately claimed (because no loss or injury was inflicted on other agents by their acquisition). A "right to x" is a pseudo-property imputed to persons to denote that the person acquired x righteously (without inflicting loss or injury on others) and therefore may rightfully claim it.

And, no, natural rights are not "what people say they are," if you mean anyone can use the term to denote anything one wishes. Try universalizing that principle, and reflect upon whether language could any longer serve to communicate.
GE Morton
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Re: Human rights: what are they, and do they exist?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: June 18th, 2019, 4:11 am
Father literally always implies a man who sired offspring.A man who sired offspring literally always implies father. Tautology.
Rights is being debated it's not tautological.
You're missing the point, which was that being a "father" is a pseudo-property attributed to someone if a certain fact about that person is true. I.e., an empirical fact about that person becomes a property of the person. Of course it is a tautology that a man who has sired offspring is a father. It is also a tautology that a person who acquired x righteously (and has not subsequently freely surrendered it) has a right to x.
'Ontic': relating to entities and the facts about them; relating to real as opposed to phenomenal existence.
Not a very useful definition, since what is to be counted as "real" is precisely the central question of ontology.
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