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Money and Ethics

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
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Ulrich
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Ulrich » February 1st, 2018, 4:36 am

In your question you strictly exclude all the bad consequences that usually accompany a crime, such as theft (Generally the perpetrator might get caught as a result of his crime and/or the victim would suffer a financial loss and so on). Therefore, from a perspective of moral consequentialism, you will have trouble to defend the wrongness of the theft. However, there are other ways to assess the moral value of the theft, the most obivious one being the Categorical Imperative of good old Immanuel Kant. The C.I. is explicity not founded on any consequentialist argumentation, but rather on the idea that self-contradiction is evidently wrong in the eyes of every rational being. Your thought experiment is quite good, insofar as it points out the weaknesses of consequentialist thinking.

Jan Sand
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand » February 1st, 2018, 8:41 pm

Although money is very useful in society it creates a barrier to the spread of knowledge and understanding and thereby destroys the most valuable prize that humanity possesses, I do not know how this should be handled or corrected but money has become a disease that is destroying the world and I see no way to stop this destruction.

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Frost
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost » February 1st, 2018, 9:43 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
February 1st, 2018, 8:41 pm
Although money is very useful in society it creates a barrier to the spread of knowledge and understanding and thereby destroys the most valuable prize that humanity possesses, I do not know how this should be handled or corrected but money has become a disease that is destroying the world and I see no way to stop this destruction.
At the same time, we wouldn't have computers or the internet without money...

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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand » February 2nd, 2018, 1:06 am

Turing who was one of the fundamental explorers into computers certainly was not interested in money nor was Einstein or Newton or Socrates. Money is a system of control of the real wealth of the planet that idiots like Trump and the whole financial sector of the world used to enslave civilization so they can make wars and live in mansions with more room than they could ever need. It is a frightful disease controlled by insane monsters who hate everybody but themselves and like any cancer it survives on outgrowing every useful organization of humanity to destroy it.

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Frost
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost » February 2nd, 2018, 1:14 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 2nd, 2018, 1:06 am
Turing who was one of the fundamental explorers into computers certainly was not interested in money nor was Einstein or Newton or Socrates. Money is a system of control of the real wealth of the planet that idiots like Trump and the whole financial sector of the world used to enslave civilization so they can make wars and live in mansions with more room than they could ever need. It is a frightful disease controlled by insane monsters who hate everybody but themselves and like any cancer it survives on outgrowing every useful organization of humanity to destroy it.
Money is a medium of exchange that is used to build wealth. That's basic economics.

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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand » February 2nd, 2018, 1:29 am

And there are basic economics that date to the earliest civilizations which clearly indicate that momey's prime usage was used to keep people indebted to control them. This is the current system of credit cards that force people to pay for the use of their own money use and to impoverish people for falling behind on usury interest rates. It's a prime method of social control and now even democratic processes are under the thumb of those who have the money power to control all the machinery of democratic government. It will kill us all.

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Frost
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost » February 2nd, 2018, 1:37 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 2nd, 2018, 1:29 am
And there are basic economics that date to the earliest civilizations which clearly indicate that momey's prime usage was used to keep people indebted to control them. This is the current system of credit cards that force people to pay for the use of their own money use and to impoverish people for falling behind on usury interest rates. It's a prime method of social control and now even democratic processes are under the thumb of those who have the money power to control all the machinery of democratic government. It will kill us all.
People always find ways to control others, but if it weren't for money there wouldn't be modern civilization let alone the electronic device you are using to access this forum. Nor would the internet exist which spreads information around the world to a staggering degree, rather than being "a barrier to the spread of knowledge and understanding."

Now if we focus on maintaining the rights of all equally and enforcing strict property rights, then corruption, manipulation, and coercion can be dramatically reduced. Then money will provide even greater benefit than we already see.

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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand » February 2nd, 2018, 2:26 am

I admire your optimism but you have no basis whatsoever to conclude that all technological progress is due only to money. You are, of course, perfectly free to indulge in your own prejudices in the matter, as I am in mine. But since there has not existed a form of civilization without money you have no way to know whether or how that might function. The internet was not even imagined a mere half century ago. If nothing else, the rise of forms like bitcoin indicate that the current form of money, wherein it encourages technologies that are making life on the planet impossible, may have different forms - although bitcoin itself is not working in that direction. That the financialization of the current economics of the world which has destroyed much of the industry of the USA is a prime example of social catastrophe out of mere monetary considerations and the rise of robotics and automation which looks to remove human workers from a large percentage of industry leaves the current money situation in a most peculiar condition insofar as the benefits to the majority of humans are concerned. Both the banks and the government regularly create huge quantities of money merely by digital notation but the realities of food and materials and energy are not so easily made real. Money is a useful illusion but it is a fundamental fantasy and might well be found an impediment to life on the planet.

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Frost
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost » February 2nd, 2018, 2:34 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 2nd, 2018, 2:26 am
I admire your optimism but you have no basis whatsoever to conclude that all technological progress is due only to money. You are, of course, perfectly free to indulge in your own prejudices in the matter, as I am in mine. But since there has not existed a form of civilization without money you have no way to know whether or how that might function. The internet was not even imagined a mere half century ago. If nothing else, the rise of forms like bitcoin indicate that the current form of money, wherein it encourages technologies that are making life on the planet impossible, may have different forms - although bitcoin itself is not working in that direction. That the financialization of the current economics of the world which has destroyed much of the industry of the USA is a prime example of social catastrophe out of mere monetary considerations and the rise of robotics and automation which looks to remove human workers from a large percentage of industry leaves the current money situation in a most peculiar condition insofar as the benefits to the majority of humans are concerned. Both the banks and the government regularly create huge quantities of money merely by digital notation but the realities of food and materials and energy are not so easily made real. Money is a useful illusion but it is a fundamental fantasy and might well be found an impediment to life on the planet.
Money is a medium of exchange. You cannot develop complex economies and civilizations without a common medium of exchange, otherwise you cannot get above primitive barter economies that do not allow for the specialization of labor necessary for civilization.

When you say that "Money is a useful illusion but it is a fundamental fantasy and might well be found an impediment to life on the planet" I can tell you if you eliminated money in the world you are eliminating a medium of exchange, and doing so would lead to the death of billions.

You are right about the problem of being able to create money out of thin air; this is a tremendous problem, and is precisely why we need a gold standard with 100% reserve banking. All else is fraud and criminal. The ability to print money robs from the poor and gives to the ultra rich. Strict gold standard 100% reserve monetary policy and strict enforcement of private property rights would prevent that from occurring and we can reap the benefits of money as a medium of exchange which helps us to build wealth and civilization.

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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand » February 2nd, 2018, 2:56 am

As Nixon discovered and implemented, the gold standard was an impediment to economic development. And those strong advocates of property rights are the same people who turn people into property and the deaths of millions is a standard celebration of that prominent 1% that are now driving the entire planet to total catastrophe. Nobody has to pay for the oxygen in the atmosphere or the growth of ocean coral. Humans are animals like other animals and there was no necessity for money to turn a tyrannosaurus into a sparrow. We are natural phenomena whereas, like vampires and fairies and gods , money is a human fantasy and currently an impediment to the reality of survival.

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Frost
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost » February 2nd, 2018, 3:05 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 2nd, 2018, 2:56 am
As Nixon discovered and implemented, the gold standard was an impediment to economic development.
Nonsense. He took the U.S. off the international gold standard to prevent countries from holding us to it which costs us money when we continued to inflate our money supply.
Jan Sand wrote:
February 2nd, 2018, 2:56 am
And those strong advocates of property rights are the same people who turn people into property and the deaths of millions is a standard celebration of that prominent 1% that are now driving the entire planet to total catastrophe. Nobody has to pay for the oxygen in the atmosphere or the growth of ocean coral. Humans are animals like other animals and there was no necessity for money to turn a tyrannosaurus into a sparrow. We are natural phenomena whereas, like vampires and fairies and gods , money is a human fantasy and currently an impediment to the reality of survival.
Complete nonsense. This is not any kind of argument against anything I said. Money is merely a medium of exchange. If you take it away you take away the ability for people to make economic transactions which build wealth and provide people with, you know....food and other necessities of survival. If you eliminate money you are left with barter which cannot support modern societies. Barter can only support primitive societies since it inhibits the ability to make transactions and inhibits the formation of the division of labor necessary for modern civilization. If you take away money you would be killing a very large portion of the world's population an destroy civilization. To say "Humans are animals like other animals and there was no necessity for money to turn a tyrannosaurus into a sparrow" is an immature daydream that ignores economic theory. Money is absolutely necessary for civilization and there must be strict laws to support its role as a medium of exchange.

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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand » February 2nd, 2018, 3:19 am

You might profit by examining the link at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The ... 5000_Years which details the nature of money and its destructive potentials which are reaching its destructive capabilities in current society. It seem to be very important information you are in desperate need of to dissipate some rather fundamental misconceptions.

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Frost
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost » February 2nd, 2018, 3:46 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 2nd, 2018, 3:19 am
You might profit by examining the link at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The ... 5000_Years which details the nature of money and its destructive potentials which are reaching its destructive capabilities in current society. It seem to be very important information you are in desperate need of to dissipate some rather fundamental misconceptions.
Please provide an actual argument rather than linking to a book that is obviously clueless about economic theory.

Jan Sand
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Jan Sand » February 2nd, 2018, 3:57 am

I entered this discussion on the hopes you might live up to my expectations of rationality. I apologize for my mistakes.

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Frost
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Re: Money and Ethics

Post by Frost » February 2nd, 2018, 1:24 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
February 2nd, 2018, 3:57 am
I entered this discussion on the hopes you might live up to my expectations of rationality. I apologize for my mistakes.
So you're not even going to try to make an argument?

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