Universal values

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value
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Re: Universal values

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Sy Borg wrote: August 16th, 2022, 8:55 pm What do Asian people think about being called Oriental by westerners? If "Oriental" is being put aside, Is the problem that the term was used at a time when there was more discrimination? I understand that indigenous Australians prefer "Aboriginal" to "Aborigine", and I suspect it's due to past stigma.
Interesting question! Isn't one of the forum admins (a manager of the book discussions) from China?

Oriental seems to have a positive notion in my opinion (from the perspective of the users in Europe). It occurs to me that it communicates something mysterious, valuable and perhaps also spiritual.
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Re: Universal values

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value wrote: August 19th, 2022, 5:07 amOriental seems to have a positive notion in my opinion (from the perspective of the users in Europe). It occurs to me that it communicates something mysterious, valuable and perhaps also spiritual.
You sound like you are of my generation. The mystical Orient, the exotic and welcoming Middle East and the grand mysteries of Egypt. We thought of Asia as exciting and exotic. Since then, the west's conceptions of the East have ever more tilted towards overcrowding, corruption, pollution and aggression, as their cultures are overlaid and diluted by modernity.

Meanwhile, the West was once known for its righteousness, freedom, enterprise and technology. Now it's more known for overcrowding, corruption, pollution and aggression :lol:

You have to laugh at the absurdity of it all. I find that it beats the alternatives. Whatever universal values exist, they are basic - no killing, stealing or raping, unless you are powerful. That's universal values in a nutshell. The rest is up for grabs, as evidenced by the disparate ideologies around the globe.
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Re: Universal values

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value wrote: August 19th, 2022, 5:07 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 16th, 2022, 8:55 pm What do Asian people think about being called Oriental by westerners? If "Oriental" is being put aside, Is the problem that the term was used at a time when there was more discrimination? I understand that indigenous Australians prefer "Aboriginal" to "Aborigine", and I suspect it's due to past stigma.
Interesting question! Isn't one of the forum admins (a manager of the book discussions) from China?

Oriental seems to have a positive notion in my opinion (from the perspective of the users in Europe). It occurs to me that it communicates something mysterious, valuable and perhaps also spiritual.
Question for you, do you think being known as "good at math" is a compliment?
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: Universal values

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I would take it as a compliment.
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LuckyR
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Re: Universal values

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Sy Borg wrote: August 19th, 2022, 8:43 pm I would take it as a compliment.
Many if not most non Asians don't understand why it isn't.

Hint: it's not dissimilar to why Blacks aren't amused by being told they are good at tap dancing.
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value
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Re: Universal values

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LuckyR wrote: August 19th, 2022, 8:09 pm Question for you, do you think being known as "good at math" is a compliment?
I do not see how such an assumption about people in general would be similar to the reference 'Oriental' for 'the world of Asia'.

In my opinion, the term Oriental includes respect for 'the great unknown' (i.e. mystery) due to the diversity of people that might be found in Asia.

Sy Borg wrote: August 19th, 2022, 8:43 pm I would take it as a compliment.
LuckyR wrote: August 20th, 2022, 2:39 amMany if not most non Asians don't understand why it isn't.

Hint: it's not dissimilar to why Blacks aren't amused by being told they are good at tap dancing.
Perhaps it is the generalization that offends people, with Asia and even just China being an aggregation of a great diversity of (groups of) people?

Why would the term Oriental offend people in Asia in your opinion or alternatively, why would it not be a compliment?
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Re: Universal values

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LuckyR wrote: August 20th, 2022, 2:39 amMany if not most non Asians don't understand why it isn't.
Hint: it's not dissimilar to why Blacks aren't amused by being told they are good at tap dancing.
value wrote: August 20th, 2022, 5:17 am Perhaps it is the generalization that offends people, with Asia and even just China being an aggregation of a great diversity of (groups of) people?
I wouldn't like it if other nationalities oversimplified and trivialised my culture by asserting that the only quality my people have is being good at maths.
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Re: Universal values

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value wrote: August 20th, 2022, 5:17 am
LuckyR wrote: August 19th, 2022, 8:09 pm Question for you, do you think being known as "good at math" is a compliment?
I do not see how such an assumption about people in general would be similar to the reference 'Oriental' for 'the world of Asia'.

In my opinion, the term Oriental includes respect for 'the great unknown' (i.e. mystery) due to the diversity of people that might be found in Asia.

Sy Borg wrote: August 19th, 2022, 8:43 pm I would take it as a compliment.
LuckyR wrote: August 20th, 2022, 2:39 amMany if not most non Asians don't understand why it isn't.

Hint: it's not dissimilar to why Blacks aren't amused by being told they are good at tap dancing.
Perhaps it is the generalization that offends people, with Asia and even just China being an aggregation of a great diversity of (groups of) people?

Why would the term Oriental offend people in Asia in your opinion or alternatively, why would it not be a compliment?
Well, you get an opinion, but if you're not Asian can you understand that Asians might not share your opinion and that on this subject matter that theirs is more important than yours?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Universal values

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Pattern-chaser wrote: August 20th, 2022, 6:47 am
LuckyR wrote: August 20th, 2022, 2:39 amMany if not most non Asians don't understand why it isn't.
Hint: it's not dissimilar to why Blacks aren't amused by being told they are good at tap dancing.
value wrote: August 20th, 2022, 5:17 am Perhaps it is the generalization that offends people, with Asia and even just China being an aggregation of a great diversity of (groups of) people?
I wouldn't like it if other nationalities oversimplified and trivialised my culture by asserting that the only quality my people have is being good at maths.
You, my friend are more circumspect than the average here.
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Re: Universal values

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value wrote: August 20th, 2022, 5:17 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 19th, 2022, 8:43 pm I would take it as a compliment.
LuckyR wrote: August 20th, 2022, 2:39 amMany if not most non Asians don't understand why it isn't.

Hint: it's not dissimilar to why Blacks aren't amused by being told they are good at tap dancing.
Perhaps it is the generalization that offends people, with Asia and even just China being an aggregation of a great diversity of (groups of) people?

Why would the term Oriental offend people in Asia in your opinion or alternatively, why would it not be a compliment?
Yes, it's the generalisations, even if they are complimentary. South Park hilariously captures the dynamic.


Stereotyping somewhat diminishes the accomplishment of being, say, a math whiz. That is, you are not good at math because of your personal gifts, but because you are just one more member of a group with an inherent advantage. Further, the assumption can also imply that one's math orientation results in heartless logic.

Personally, I see all that as preciousness. People will always find a way to be offended due to the (dubious) social benefits of obtaining the moral high ground. Personally, I'll take whatever compliments are on offer; it's not people are lining up to compliment one other, rather the alternative.
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Re: Universal values

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Sy Borg wrote: August 20th, 2022, 8:23 pm Personally, I see all that as preciousness. People will always find a way to be offended...
Is it so much to ask? If a particular community — women, black people, Moslems, and so on — simply ask to be treated with basic courtesy, as most other such groups are, is that really "precious"? And if the lack of such courtesy causes assaults and beatings, and occasionally deaths, doesn't that make their requests more urgent and more reasonable? I rather think it does.
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Re: Universal values

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Seven treasures/universal values

Then Ugga, the king's chief minister, approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: "It's amazing, lord, & awesome, how prosperous Migara Rohaneyya is, how great his treasures, how great his resources!"

[The Buddha:] "But what is his property, Ugga? What are his great treasures & great resources?"

"One hundred thousand pieces of gold, lord, to say nothing of his silver."

"That is treasure, Ugga. I don't say that it's not. And that treasure is open to fire, floods, kings, thieves, & hateful heirs. But these seven treasures are not open to fire, flood, kings, thieves, or hateful heirs. Which seven? The treasure of conviction, the treasure of virtue, the treasure of conscience, the treasure of concern, the treasure of listening, the treasure of generosity, the treasure of discernment. These, Ugga, are the seven treasures that are not open to fire, flood, kings, thieves, or hateful heirs.

The treasure of conviction,
the treasure of virtue,
the treasure of conscience & concern.
The treasure of listening, generosity,
& discernment as the seventh treasure.
Whoever, man or woman, has these treasures,
has great treasure in the world
that no human or divine being can excel.
So conviction & virtue, confidence & Dhamma-vision
should be cultivated by the wise,
remembering the Buddhas' instruction.

(in detail)
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Sy Borg
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Re: Universal values

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Pattern-chaser wrote: August 21st, 2022, 8:15 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 20th, 2022, 8:23 pm Personally, I see all that as preciousness. People will always find a way to be offended...
Is it so much to ask? If a particular community — women, black people, Moslems, and so on — simply ask to be treated with basic courtesy, as most other such groups are, is that really "precious"? And if the lack of such courtesy causes assaults and beatings, and occasionally deaths, doesn't that make their requests more urgent and more reasonable? I rather think it does.
It's a matter of balance. Consider the episode of Fawlty Towers, The Germans, not aired by some outlets due to "racism". Yet the racism in the show is not lauded by Cleese and co, but hilariously ridiculed.

The show made racism look primitive, moronic and neurotic - so it was banned from air for racism. That is a failure to understand context and, yes, preciousness.
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Re: Universal values

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 21st, 2022, 8:15 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 20th, 2022, 8:23 pm Personally, I see all that as preciousness. People will always find a way to be offended...
Is it so much to ask? If a particular community — women, black people, Moslems, and so on — simply ask to be treated with basic courtesy, as most other such groups are, is that really "precious"? And if the lack of such courtesy causes assaults and beatings, and occasionally deaths, doesn't that make their requests more urgent and more reasonable? I rather think it does.
Apparently it is commonly too much to expect those not subject to negatives to appreciate the effect of said negatives. Just get over it, it's not really that big of a deal!
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value
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Re: Universal values

Post by value »

LuckyR wrote: August 20th, 2022, 1:13 pm Well, you get an opinion, but if you're not Asian can you understand that Asians might not share your opinion and that on this subject matter that theirs is more important than yours?
Yes, still eagerly awaiting a reply by the author of the topic Xuanchangwei or others.

You did not answer my question however: Why would the term Oriental offend people in Asia in your opinion or why would it not be a compliment?
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