The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
Kathyd
Posts: 52
Joined: June 21st, 2017, 3:43 pm

The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Kathyd » March 6th, 2018, 2:10 pm

A friend and I were discussing the recent child abuse case concerning the Turpin family (https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/19/us/calif ... index.html), and I’d like to hear others’ opinions on it.

Our discussion centered around the issue of accountability. We had heard that some of the older siblings participated in some of the abuse of the younger children, and my friend felt that the older children should be held accountable for their actions, not just the parents. I thought her position was ludicrous, as obviously the older siblings were completely under the control of these two monsters and were just doing what they had to to survive. But she disagreed and brought up the issue of prosecuting Nazi soldiers as an example. She said my position was similar to saying that a Nazi prison guard shouldn’t be held accountable for his actions because he was subordinate and only following orders. But I don’t feel like this analogy is appropriate because here we are talking about children, and the parent-child relationship, which I feel is a bit different than an adult who commits war crimes on command.

The issue really hit home with me because I grew up in similar circumstances as the Turpin children, so I know what the older children were going through and why it’s unethical to try and hold them accountable for anything. In my case, it was my younger brother and sister who were abused, while my older brother and I were the favorites who were expected to help discipline them. We were all foster children who were adopted, but our parents only regarded my older brother and I as their ‘real’ children, while our younger siblings were ‘trash’ who got just what they deserved. They trained my brother and I to treat them like crap and they made us help ‘discipline’ them, as they called it. They would hand us a belt or switch and tell us to beat them, they encouraged us to tell lies about them so they could have a reason to whip them, and they even left us in charge of them while they were gone, with the understanding that we could do whatever we wanted to with them.

After an unfortunate accident that left both of them severly scarred, I couldn’t take it anymore and I finally had the courage to report what was going on to the police. Our parents were arrested and they ended up getting sentenced to 10 yrs in prison, while the four of us ended up living with various relatives. This was difficult for all of us, but afterwards I remember thinking that at least the nightmare was over, and now we could all live normal lives.

But it wasn’t over. Afterwards, our younger siblings tried to hold my brother and I (but mostly me because only I have any money) accountable for our actions. I was surprised because it was I that ended up telling on our parents and saving them, and I felt that they should understand that my brother and I were really just as much victims as they were, but apparently they didn’t see it that way, or maybe it was just about the money, I’m not sure. But at any rate they felt like I owed them a large amount of compensation and they tried to make me feel bad about it because I wouldn’t give it to them. The incident that scarred them left them in permanent pain and severly disfigured, to the point that they look so hideous that they have to completely cover themselves from head to toe before going out in public, and they feel like I should compensate them for their pain and suffering, as well as to have plastic surgery. But I feel that this is unreasonable, for 3 reasons:

1. Our parents had my brother and I brainwashed, so we didn’t really realize the gravity of our actions at the time. Our parents taught us that what we were doing was not only necessary but ‘right’.
2. The incident that scarred them was an accident, although it did happen as a result of us trying to punish them.
3. I consulted with various plastic surgeons, including my own, and there is really nothing they can do. They don’t have enough healthy skin to graft, so the end result would hardly be an improvement. They would still have to cover up to go out in public anyways, so the money spent would pretty much be a waste.

Nevertheless they, and some members of my family, still think I owe them something and that I should pay them, no matter how I feel. But while I do feel very sorry for them, and feel awful for what I did, I’m sorry, I don’t feel like it’s fair to blame me for what happened, nor do I feel I owe them anything, because our parents were ultimately in charge and my brother and I were only doing what was expected of us.
What are your opinions on this? In child abuse cases like the Turpins, do you think it’s ethical to hold the older siblings accountable for their actions, or only the parents? Why or why not? And how does this related to the ‘Nazi analogy’?

Thanks in advance for your replies. Because obviously this issue is important to me not just philosophically, but also personally.

Eduk
Posts: 2085
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Eduk » March 6th, 2018, 2:45 pm

The question of responsibility is irrelevant. What matters is the actions that should be taken to prevent harm from happening in the first place and to prevent harm from happening in the future.
Unknown means unknown.

User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 3088
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by LuckyR » March 8th, 2018, 1:38 am

None of these cases can be evaluated without exploring what the alternatives to going along with the evil agenda would be.

In the case of Nazi guards, perhaps they would be shot for insubordination, or perhaps they could transfer from camp duty to the artillery section.
I am unfamiliar with the case you cite
You are the one who can answer that question in your own case.
"As usual... it depends."

Judaka
Posts: 235
Joined: May 2nd, 2017, 10:10 am

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Judaka » March 8th, 2018, 7:16 am

There's no true answer to the question of the accountability of brainwashed children, I think it's a question of what is the substance of a person. For example you seem to feel no responsibility for your malicious actions but appear to give yourself some credit for reporting the abuse. Presumably because you distinguish between the "you" which obeyed your parents and the "you" which acted out of your own will. When I look back into my own past, I don't feel I can relate with my behaviour at certain ages because it doesn't reflect who I am now and that behaviour is often associated with people of that age. That's my philosophical answer; it's really subjective and many vastly different answers are all logical answers, I prefer to take the answer which gives the best results - no good is going to come out of beating yourself up over it or giving away your assets out of guilt so I most certainly wouldn't do either of those things in your position.

My own view is that It's clear to see that one's moral compass is to a large degree a result of nurturing influences, it's obvious that children can be manipulated into near anything. I wouldn't say a child who was manipulated into killing themselves to have commited suicide, it's murder. Similarly, when a child is manipulated into hurting others - their actions are being caused by their manipulator. I don't think it's fair to hold children accountable for lacking the worldliness and guile to resist being manipulated by their caretakers, it's expected that the child won't be able to resist and it's unreasonable for individuals who in all likelihood would have done the same things in the same situation to take the moral high ground.

User avatar
Kathyd
Posts: 52
Joined: June 21st, 2017, 3:43 pm

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Kathyd » March 8th, 2018, 12:54 pm

That is exactly how I see it too, Judaka.

I think my younger siblings are fully aware that if the tables were turned they would have behaved much like my brother and I. I really just think they’re trying to extort me for money, but it’s still hard not to feel a bit guilty over what happened to them. I couldn’t imagine going through what they have to go through.

User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 363
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Count Lucanor » March 10th, 2018, 12:00 am

Although all the children were put in a distressing situation by their parents, and that action alone constitutes abuse, it doesn't seem that the abuse the younger siblings went through can even be compared with any the older siblings had. The younger ones had it much worst and they have to live with the effects for the rest of their lives, so the statement "my brother and I were really just as much victims as they were" is questionable. I don't remember all of the details of the Turpin case, but I think the older brothers suffered more or less the same treatment as the younger ones and they were severely malnourished, which is different than being "the favorites".

I guess the key element to determine accountability here is at what age the older siblings were instrumental to the abuse. The parents' influence is certainly an attenuating circumstance, but if the siblings were old enough, at least some accountability is to be expected.

User avatar
MayorOfNickelish
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: March 10th, 2018, 3:10 am

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by MayorOfNickelish » March 10th, 2018, 4:08 am

This is a complex situation. I can understand the distress from all sides. What I find particularly interesting and perhaps indicative of human compassion inherent in individuals is that in the case of the Turpin family, and apparently in the author of this threads case, there was one individual who was a 'subordinate' in the family that not only went out of their way to rescue themselves but also to rescue their family members. What this reminds me of is a conversation I had with someone about grooming, the way an exploitive person trains the person(s) they abuse. A big component of what allows abuse to go on for a long time is secrecy. The breaking of the secret allows the opportunity for the abused to get help. I do think there are key differences in the two cases discussed, which Count Lucanor summarizes nicely. Having different levels of treatment between children does make the levels of suffering different (potentially). However, I do align with Judaka with this one. I think children who are subject to abuse, including being forced to abuse others, are not accountable for actions during the time of abuse.

Judaka
Posts: 235
Joined: May 2nd, 2017, 10:10 am

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Judaka » March 10th, 2018, 9:29 am

so the statement "my brother and I were really just as much victims as they were" is questionable
Certainly they were victims of less but I don't think victimhood is a spectrum.
I guess the key element to determine accountability here is at what age the older siblings were instrumental to the abuse. The parents' influence is certainly an attenuating circumstance, but if the siblings were old enough, at least some accountability is to be expected.
Why does age matter? Do you believe people are born with an understanding of modern morality? A child could be fearful and obedient, listen to their parents or a child could be malicious and domineering and in this environment, the result would be similar.

The nature of the abuse may determine the motivations and where they came from - thus allowing one to hold the individual accountable for that which they are guilty. People learn more about morality as they grow older because they know and understand more... you may become more religious (the religion you were taught) or develop ideas about responsibility and duty (which you took from your surroundings). You certainly don't just start becoming the ideal of western virtue once you hit a certain age...

History is all you need to ascertain that people can be cruel and malicious when allowed or taught to be, no need to maintain a facade because it gets under the skin of people who now believe humanity is somehow now above all that stuff.

User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 363
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Count Lucanor » March 11th, 2018, 11:21 am

Judaka wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 9:29 am
so the statement "my brother and I were really just as much victims as they were" is questionable
Certainly they were victims of less but I don't think victimhood is a spectrum.
Of course it is. If someone is the victim of a violent robbery and some other day they hacked their bank account, there's a difference. If they were stolen 10 dollars or their life's savings, there's a difference. And if someone is robbed, as a victim they have faced a different stress than if they were beaten to death.
Judaka wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 9:29 am
I guess the key element to determine accountability here is at what age the older siblings were instrumental to the abuse. The parents' influence is certainly an attenuating circumstance, but if the siblings were old enough, at least some accountability is to be expected.
Why does age matter?
For the same reason there's age of sexual consent, age for driver's license, age for drinking alcohol, age for crime accountability, etc. Age is frequently used as an indicator of people's level of maturity in judgement, even though it is, obviously, an inexact approximation to the person's "psychological age". That's why in some circumstances minors are judged as a adults.

Judaka wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 9:29 am
Do you believe people are born with an understanding of modern morality? A child could be fearful and obedient, listen to their parents or a child could be malicious and domineering and in this environment, the result would be similar.
Of course the environment where people is raised plays a role in their personality and behavior and can be determined to be an attenuating circumstance in their actions when they're grownups. However, it is generally agreed that people are individually accountable for their actions. There wouldn't be a justice system without this principle running at the base.
Judaka wrote:
March 10th, 2018, 9:29 am
The nature of the abuse may determine the motivations and where they came from - thus allowing one to hold the individual accountable for that which they are guilty. People learn more about morality as they grow older because they know and understand more... you may become more religious (the religion you were taught) or develop ideas about responsibility and duty (which you took from your surroundings). You certainly don't just start becoming the ideal of western virtue once you hit a certain age...
Social norms and individual sensibility change, that's a fact. I heard that in ancient times a misbehaved child could get his ear nailed to a surface and no one would help them free. Compare that to rotten children today that cry in horror because they didn't get a toy.

User avatar
Kathyd
Posts: 52
Joined: June 21st, 2017, 3:43 pm

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Kathyd » March 11th, 2018, 4:48 pm

Count Lucanor wrote:
March 11th, 2018, 11:21 am
Of course it is. If someone is the victim of a violent robbery and some other day they hacked their bank account, there's a difference. If they were stolen 10 dollars or their life's savings, there's a difference. And if someone is robbed, as a victim they have faced a different stress than if they were beaten to death.
Lucanor, I do see your point, but I think in cases like my family’s it’s important to differentiate between physical and psychological abuse. Certainly, our younger siblings suffered more physical abuse than my brother and I did. No doubt about that. Our parents never laid a finger on me or my brother, but they beat our younger siblings daily. And my brother and I are not the ones who have to cover ourselves literally from head to toe whenever we’re out in public, they are. So yes, if you are only considering the physical abuse, in cases like the Turpins not all victims are equal.

But when you consider the psychological abuse, really it’s all pretty much the same. I wouldn’t expect you or anyone else to understand that if you’ve never experienced it, but I can assure you it’s true. The Nazi guards who were taught that Jews are inferior were just as warped psychologically as those who were taught that they were inferior. It doesn’t matter if one is taught that they are ‘superior’ or ‘inferior’, in the end both parties are in pretty much the same position psychologically speaking - their minds are warped and they become less than human.

But nothing is easier than dismissing the psychological abuse of the oppressors in favor of only focusing on the psychological abuse of the oppressed. It’s human nature to take the side of the ‘underdog’, but in reality all parties involved are equallly damaged, if not physically then certainly psychologically.

Count Lucanor wrote:For the same reason there's age of sexual consent, age for driver's license, age for drinking alcohol, age for crime accountability, etc. Age is frequently used as an indicator of people's level of maturity in judgement, even though it is, obviously, an inexact approximation to the person's "psychological age". That's why in some circumstances minors are judged as a adults.
Count Lucanor wrote: Of course the environment where people is raised plays a role in their personality and behavior and can be determined to be an attenuating circumstance in their actions when they're grownups. However, it is generally agreed that people are individually accountable for their actions. There wouldn't be a justice system without this principle running at the base.
Again, I can understand this position, but it didn’t jibe with my personal experience. Of course by the time I was in 8th or 9th grade I knew something was wrong with our family. And so did my older brother. But there was no way we were going to turn in our own parents, and I think it’s unreasonable that many in our family questioned this. Your parents are, well, your parents. They nurture and protect you, advise you. Our parents took care of us and guided us at a vulnerable time in our lives. We were not going to send our own parents to jail! I remember we discussed it various times but in the end we were too unsure of how it would work out to go for it. What would happen to all of us? Where would we live? Being teenagers, there was no way we could have built up enough courage to do something so dramatic.

But I do not expect anyone who hasn’t grown up in such a terrible situation to be able to understand this. I’m not naive.
Count Lucanor wrote:Social norms and individual sensibility change, that's a fact. I heard that in ancient times a misbehaved child could get his ear nailed to a surface and no one would help them free. Compare that to rotten children today that cry in horror because they didn't get a toy.
Well, I don’t think it would be an improvement to our social norms or individual sensibilities if we began nailing children to wooden planks by their ears! I can only hope you were saying this partly in jest. I think most of us would agree that our current norms and customs are an improvement over how we felt during medieval times.

My brother and I really couldn’t have done anything different than we did. But you would have had to live through our hell to understand that. I’m just glad that it all ended before something worse happened to them, because they easily could have died. In fact, sometimes I’m even glad that I accidently burned them, because if it wasn’t for that unfortunate incident my brother and I would never have had the courage to tell someone what was going on. But I do feel bad about the fact that they’re so disfigured. I couldn’t imagine having to completely cover myself before being able to go outside.

However, I thought a lot about this and I just don’t feel comfortable compensating them for what happened. That, imho, is going too far. It’s our parents that should compensate them, and that is exactly what the courts ruled in their civil suit. The problem is that our parents are in prison and have no money now, and I think they’re just going for the money however they can get it. Which imo is unfortunate, because it is preventing us from reconciling and having a normal sibling relationship now. :(

Now, as far as me just paying for the cosmetic surgery they want, I did consider at least doing that. But after consulting with various plastic surgeons, including my own (who’s the best in town), I determined that it would just be a waste of time and money. They don’t have enough good skin for the proper grafting procedures, and the end result, while perhaps being an improvement, would not be nearly good enough to change their lives. They would still lhook bad enough that they’d have to cover themselves up in public before going out, so imho it just wouldn’t be worth it.

Judaka
Posts: 235
Joined: May 2nd, 2017, 10:10 am

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Judaka » March 11th, 2018, 7:54 pm

Well as I said, being a victim of a violent robbery and a non-violent robbery are not the same but that doesn't make victimhood a spectrum. You're either a victim of one of these things or you aren't.

As for accountability and the justice system, they are carefully designed around being able to determine right from wrong, this and intent matters. Hence while it's unreasonable to use ignorance as an excuse, when we have an indoctrinated individual whose intent is to obey the rules (and avoid the punishments) and who is unaware of right and wrong as it is seen in the justice system, this in my view severely lessens their accountability.

"Gale Kelley, a trainer for the International Association of Trauma Professionals, said that reluctance was understandable.

“They were born into this. This was normal for them. Some of them may not even realise they’ve been abused,” she said. “These children have been living in isolation so they only know what they know.”" - About the oldest Turpin child.

He's described as an anti-social loner - if this was a child from another family who was boarding with the Turpins, I'd say his negligence to report the crimes was willfully malicious and sadistic. The abuse changes everything.

User avatar
Atreyu
Posts: 1737
Joined: June 17th, 2014, 3:11 am
Favorite Philosopher: P.D. Ouspensky
Location: Orlando, FL

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Atreyu » March 12th, 2018, 12:22 pm

Well, I don't understand why it has to be so 'either-or'. Why not some accountability, but not complete accountability? And I think that was how it was applied at Nazi war crime trials. Someone in charge was held more accountable than a mere prison guard, but the guard was held accountable to some degree. He received a lessor punishment, but he was held accountable to some extent. And that is how I think it should be for older children in cases like the Turpins.

In Kathy's case, I would not hold her and her brother as accountable as their parents, but I would think they'd have no problem accepting at least some responsibility for their own behavior. I think paying for their cosmetic surgery would be the least she could do, even if it isn't going to be that effective. After all, she was the one that actually did it, even if it was an accident.

I also think that the severity of one's actions have to be taken into account. For example, I would treat a Nazi guard differently, if he actually 'pushed the button' so to speak, versus one who only did janitorial duties at the facility. And from reading this post, it would seem that the harm was quite severe. I can only imagine what kind of accident this was.
Kathyd wrote:
March 11th, 2018, 4:48 pm
My brother and I really couldn’t have done anything different than we did. But you would have had to live through our hell to understand that. I’m just glad that it all ended before something worse happened to them, because they easily could have died. In fact, sometimes I’m even glad that I accidentally burned them, because if it wasn’t for that unfortunate incident my brother and I would never have had the courage to tell someone what was going on. But I do feel bad about the fact that they’re so disfigured. I couldn’t imagine having to completely cover myself before being able to go outside.

However, I thought a lot about this and I just don’t feel comfortable compensating them for what happened. That, imho, is going too far. It’s our parents that should compensate them, and that is exactly what the courts ruled in their civil suit. The problem is that our parents are in prison and have no money now, and I think they’re just going for the money however they can get it. Which imo is unfortunate, because it is preventing us from reconciling and having a normal sibling relationship now. :(

Now, as far as me just paying for the cosmetic surgery they want, I did consider at least doing that. But after consulting with various plastic surgeons, including my own (who’s the best in town), I determined that it would just be a waste of time and money. They don’t have enough good skin for the proper grafting procedures, and the end result, while perhaps being an improvement, would not be nearly good enough to change their lives. They would still l0ok bad enough that they’d have to cover themselves up in public before going out, so imho it just wouldn’t be worth it.
This just sounds callous, considering how much pain and suffering this accident caused. If I permanently disfigured my own brother and sister like that, I would gladly pay for any cosmetic surgery they wanted, even if it was an accident, and even if I personally didn't think it would work.

I can't even imagine what kind of 'accidental' burning could have disfigured them like that, from "head to toe". What did you do? Throw them in an oven?

I mean, sorry, don't mean to be rude, but I just can't understand how such an accident could happen.

User avatar
Kathyd
Posts: 52
Joined: June 21st, 2017, 3:43 pm

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Kathyd » March 12th, 2018, 3:53 pm

Well, I don't think it's 'callous', as much as it is just being honest. It's just a fact that any cosmetic surgery would have negligible results, and that any financial compensation should come from our parents, not me.

As far as how they got burned so bad, it was an accident involving some caustic acid which our dad stored in this shed behind our house. My brother and I were disciplining them by spraying them with it, but unfortunately we didn't know how potent it was. It was actually used for cleaning out 55 gallon drums of industrial waste. We had disciplined them by spraying them before, but not with this particular chemical. Normally, the other chemicals just irritated their skin and caused them to break out really bad, but eventually their skin healed. This stuff, however, was not like that. We knew something was wrong right afterwards because their skin was disintegrating and they were in much more pain than the other times I sprayed them. They had to be rushed to the hospital and they almost died. My sister even lost the vision in one of her eyes. It was a terrible incident but in the end it was what saved them, because after that I finally realized that I had to do something, and I ended up telling people about what was going on.

Now, naturally my brother and I feel terrible about it, but the question is what should we do about it? Or even, what can we do about it? Because there is really no way to fix what was done. Their scars are permanent, and no amount of cosmetic surgery is going to make a difference. And I wouldn't feel comfortable 'paying them off' for what happened. Not only do I think that would be a superfluous gesture, a cheap way to try and minimize my own guilt, but I also don't think it would be fair. It's not right to hold me and my brother accountable for what happened given the conditions we were in. To me, that would be like having the Nazi janitor compensate 'his' victims.

User avatar
Kathyd
Posts: 52
Joined: June 21st, 2017, 3:43 pm

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Kathyd » March 12th, 2018, 3:56 pm

Well, I don't think it's 'callous', as much as it is just being honest. It's just a fact that any cosmetic surgery would have negligible results, and that any financial compensation should come from our parents, not me.

As far as how they got burned so bad, it was an accident involving some caustic acid which our dad stored in this shed behind our house. My brother and I were disciplining them by spraying them with it, but unfortunately we didn't know how potent it was. It was actually used for cleaning out 55 gallon drums of industrial waste. We had disciplined them by spraying them before, but not with this particular chemical. Normally, the other chemicals just irritated their skin and caused them to break out really bad, but eventually their skin healed. This stuff, however, was not like that. We knew something was wrong right afterwards because their skin was disintegrating and they were in much more pain than the other times I sprayed them. They had to be rushed to the hospital and they almost died. My sister even lost the vision in one of her eyes. It was a terrible incident but in the end it was what saved them, because after that I finally realized that I had to do something, and I ended up telling people about what was going on.

Now, naturally my brother and I feel terrible about it, but the question is what should we do about it? Or even, what can we do about it? Because there is really no way to fix what was done. Their scars are permanent, and no amount of cosmetic surgery is going to make a difference. And I wouldn't feel comfortable 'paying them off' for what happened. Not only do I think that would be a superfluous gesture, a cheap way to try and minimize my own guilt, but I also don't think it would be fair. It's not right to hold me and my brother accountable for what happened given the conditions we were in. To me, that would be like having the Nazi janitor compensate 'his' victims.

User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 363
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm

Re: The Turpin child abuse case. Is it fair to hold the older children accountable?

Post by Count Lucanor » March 12th, 2018, 10:53 pm

Kathyd wrote:
March 12th, 2018, 3:53 pm
As far as how they got burned so bad, it was an accident involving some caustic acid which our dad stored in this shed behind our house. My brother and I were disciplining them by spraying them with it, but unfortunately we didn't know how potent it was. It was actually used for cleaning out 55 gallon drums of industrial waste. We had disciplined them by spraying them before, but not with this particular chemical. Normally, the other chemicals just irritated their skin and caused them to break out really bad, but eventually their skin healed. This stuff, however, was not like that. We knew something was wrong right afterwards because their skin was disintegrating and they were in much more pain than the other times I sprayed them. They had to be rushed to the hospital and they almost died. My sister even lost the vision in one of her eyes. It was a terrible incident but in the end it was what saved them, because after that I finally realized that I had to do something, and I ended up telling people about what was going on.
I don't think a child would do this without instant remorse, just by being manipulated psychologically. But if such perversion was really induced, it would explain your statements.

Post Reply