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Is Suicide Immoral?

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Greta
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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Greta » May 10th, 2018, 12:58 am

I understand that some Americans are up in arms about California's recent legislation requiring all new homes to be fitted with solar panels. There was a great deal of talk about lack of freedom.

One would hope that all of those protesting about loss of personal freedom would agree to a person's right suicide, since interfering there would seem the deepest intrusion of all. Certainly more so than being forced to build with solar panels :)

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 10th, 2018, 5:13 am

NasloxiehRorsxez wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 11:04 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 6:25 pm


People die all the time. Friends get sad, then they get over it.

If you don't commit suicide then you are going to die some other way. Your friends and family are going to suffer at some point so why should they not celebrate your choice? If they understood you as they should then they should respect that decision.
You can't stay alive forever and your response seems to ignore that basic truth.
hm, well I think you could argue that in the case of suicide as opposed to other ways of dying. There's a sense of possibility that whatever mental issues or mindset of the suicidal individual could have changed, and was preventable.

I don't really think it's the same with terminal illness, accidents, murder, etc.
But you have argued your case against suicide on the basis of the family suffering. Since you agree that that suffering is inevitable and unavoidable what is NOW your argument?
Since the suffering is going to happen at some point why not get it out of the way?
Death is not ultimately preventable.
It seems to me that your argument (such as it remains) would put unnecessary guilt upon the 'suicider' to forebear on the relief of his own suffering, and also condemn the family to continue to suffer the problems of the 'suicider'.

Suicide is not the same as "terminal illness, accidents, murder, etc.", but neither are they the same as each other. But when it comes to the loss of a relative/friend I do not see suicide as necessarily anything more suffer inducing that any of the others.
For example a person murdered can make the family suffer for generations. In this case at least suicide is less painful, being a conscious decision. Terminal illness which is possibly the most likely outcome of NOT suiciding, make the family suffer more, than suicide not less.
So I fail to see what your objection is.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 10th, 2018, 5:17 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 11:28 pm
So I dislike the idea that suicide is selfish from 2 angles: 1) it would be selfish to expect someone to continue living for me if they hated life. 2) sometimes it ain't worth it.

I agree wholly with this.
What is undeniably immoral is that a state make a law to prevent a person taking their own life. Whose life is it? Is it not immoral for the state to own a person?

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 10th, 2018, 12:15 pm

NasloxiehRorsxez wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 11:21 pm
I absolutely agree regarding terminal illness situations and long lasting diseases. Both have in common a low probability of survival and no cure.
And yet, legislatures and the legal apparatus are entitled to make the decision over the value and quality of individual lives.
But what about mental illness, mental issues, or something entirely? While there are no cures for some of them, there are treatments that could make life worth living to the sufferer, maybe even a change in attitude or mindset. So in these scenario's, what makes suicide justified?
A crappy health-care system that doesn't take care of poor people?
But then, supposing the individual did get treatment and medication which, in the judgment of the attending physician was sufficient improvement - but the patient disagrees? Which of them is better qualified to know what "life worth living" means?
What about the old couple who spent all their savings on medical treatments, went into debt and lost their house? Faced with a few last years, ill, destitute and homeless, they opted for a couple of hours dozing together in their car. I don't blame them.
Does suicide even require justification for it to not be immoral?
What morality?
My personal decisions, according to my morality, are measured against the promises I've made.
To fulfill my obligations, I'll make sure the cats are taken care of and I won't choose a messy death for someone else to clean up.
When I decide it's time to end my life, I will consult nobody, ask nobody's permission, apologize to nobody.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 10th, 2018, 12:17 pm

These matters - end-of life care, refusal of treatment, termination, body disposal, property allocation, etc. - should all be discussed with family members long before there is a crisis requiring urgent decisions. We had such discussions with my mother when she had all her faculties, so when the brain tumour made her speech incomprehensible, we knew exactly how she wanted us to proceed.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 10th, 2018, 4:59 pm

Alias wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 12:17 pm
These matters - end-of life care, refusal of treatment, termination, body disposal, property allocation, etc. - should all be discussed with family members long before there is a crisis requiring urgent decisions. We had such discussions with my mother when she had all her faculties, so when the brain tumour made her speech incomprehensible, we knew exactly how she wanted us to proceed.
So, is suicide immoral?

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Greta » May 10th, 2018, 5:41 pm

In some cases, suicide is FAR more moral than the alternative. Consider Dr Goodall's last moments at the Swiss clinic yesterday:
Australia’s oldest scientist has voluntarily ended his 104-year life after travelling to one of the few clinics in the world legally authorised to facilitate assisted deaths.

David Goodall passed away on Thursday night at the luxury Eternal Spirit clinic in Basel, Switzerland via voluntary euthanasia, after celebrating his life with family and friends in a “big party”.

Philip Nitschke, founder of right-to-die group Exit International, said Dr Goodall showed humour and a twinge of impatience in his final moments as formalities were tended to.

“During the paperwork, he said ‘what are we waiting for?’ Dr Nitschke told AAP.

And after a life spanning more than a century, Dr Goodall’s resolve and humour shone through to the last.

“His final words were ‘this is taking a long time’,” Dr Nitschke said, adding Dr Goodall’s death was peaceful.

“At my age, or less than my age, one wants to be free to choose death when the death is at an appropriate time,” Dr Goodall told reporters hours before he died.
Imagine if more people could die with such humanity and dignity - with a final party with family and friends to celebrate their love and then painlessly gone. Compare with the utter agony that is sometimes forced on helpless dying people. The ethics could not be more clear.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 10th, 2018, 5:52 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 4:59 pm
So, is suicide immoral?
Yes, if you take your morals from Job's god.
No, if you're a rational, autonomous human being.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 10th, 2018, 6:07 pm

Alias wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 5:52 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 4:59 pm
So, is suicide immoral?
Yes, if you take your morals from Job's god.
No, if you're a rational, autonomous human being.
Having gone through very nasty cancer treatment this question was more than academic to myself.
I resented and continue to resent the government's stance on euthanasia.

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Greta
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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Greta » May 10th, 2018, 6:23 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 6:07 pm
Alias wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 5:52 pm

Yes, if you take your morals from Job's god.
No, if you're a rational, autonomous human being.
Having gone through very nasty cancer treatment this question was more than academic to myself.
I resented and continue to resent the government's stance on euthanasia.
What it does is add a huge amount of stress to the situation, with patients afraid to wait too long to kill themselves lest they lose any opportunity and be forced into months or years of pointless agony - seemingly just to keep Christians happy!

Imagine if the law was extended the to dogs, so owners would not be able to put dying dogs down but send them to a dog hospital (at massive expense) and kept incapacitated and in agony for the remainder of their lives.

Maybe if more people actually graphically see or experience the problem they might wake up?

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 10th, 2018, 7:59 pm

Greta wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 6:23 pm
Maybe if more people actually graphically see or experience the problem they might wake up?
That's certainly a good point to consider.*
There is far too much "niceness" around illness - especially terminal illness. The patient puts on a brave face for visitors; the family pretends everything will be all right; everybody forces smiles; nobody mentions the pain or the ickyness or the humiliation; there is a conspiracy to keep up appearances. That's just the demand of good manners and I don't know that the situation would be improved by too much openness.
But mortality needs to be faced.
I find, medical staff are far more willing to be frank and realistic these days. When I asked my oncologist, before the course of radiation began, "Will there be enough left to make this worthwhile?", she said "Some of my patients have regretted going through it. I can't guarantee a good outcome, but the majority have done well on this treatment." (I'm in the majority.)
At that time, they were not allowed to discuss assisted suicide, but they laid out all the options, outlined the pros and cons, explained what would happen and what to expect; were honest about the odds when they made their recommendations. Now they can go the extra step and talk about the alternative.


(*Only, please, let's not make an example of dogs!!)
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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Greta
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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Greta » May 10th, 2018, 11:13 pm

Glad the treatment worked, Alias! I agree that the dog scenario would be as cruel an imposition on innocents as the current legal situation is for dying humans.

Yes, we are very insulated from death, which is why it seems so alien and shocking when we experience it. People often report that the experience felt like being in a movie (because that's as close as the lucky have been to death). It's wonderful that we have been able to insulate ourselves in this manner, but the downside is a lack of appreciation and empathy for the dying, which is ultimately what this thread is about.

As for regular suicide, I would describe it more often as a gross strategic error due to impaired judgement than immoral. Many young people terminate themselves due to inexperience, having never known the feeling of seeing life turn around when all seems hopeless (and vice versa). It's the inherently temporal nature of life that should serve as a source of hope for those in terrible situations while ideally having a sobering effect on those doing well, knowing how quickly and unexpectedly life can change.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 10th, 2018, 11:19 pm

A strong emotional and practical support structure would alleviate a good deal of that problem.
If hell is other people, so is haven. We need to get re-connected to one another - to pay real attention.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 11th, 2018, 5:56 am

Greta wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 6:23 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 6:07 pm

Having gone through very nasty cancer treatment this question was more than academic to myself.
I resented and continue to resent the government's stance on euthanasia.
What it does is add a huge amount of stress to the situation, with patients afraid to wait too long to kill themselves lest they lose any opportunity and be forced into months or years of pointless agony - seemingly just to keep Christians happy!

Imagine if the law was extended the to dogs, so owners would not be able to put dying dogs down but send them to a dog hospital (at massive expense) and kept incapacitated and in agony for the remainder of their lives.

Maybe if more people actually graphically see or experience the problem they might wake up?
I was always intellectually in favour of euthanasia for as long as I can remember, and thought it rather odd that anyone would support a government that held the power of life and death over its subjects.
It seems to me that the reason people support the laughingly called 'pro-life' is that they are, as in many other instances, in denial about the inevitability of death.
Fear of death is a big motivator.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 11th, 2018, 5:58 am

Alias wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 11:19 pm
A strong emotional and practical support structure would alleviate a good deal of that problem.
If hell is other people, so is haven. We need to get re-connected to one another - to pay real attention.
I assume you mean heaven in this statement.
"Support" and paying attention ought to mean respecting the wish of others to be able to end their lives.

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