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Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

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chatterbears
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by chatterbears » May 27th, 2018, 1:16 am

Greta wrote:
May 26th, 2018, 6:41 pm
Please dial back the ad homimem attacks that only serve to invalidate the perpetrator.

It's not a lot to ask. The alternative is banning. Can't there be one philosophy forum free of pointless ad hominem attacks? There are others where one can go hard with impunity.
I am not sure who you are referring to, but if it was me, could you point out what I said? That way I don't say it in the future.

Alias wrote:
May 26th, 2018, 7:39 pm
If that is what I did, I apologize.
I think he may have been referring to the person with the Cat picture.

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Greta
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Greta » May 27th, 2018, 1:52 am

Chatter, FYI you are speaking with two women, and a man who has a cat avatar.

Let's not focus on this; I think we can all work out where I am coming from. Sorry to butt in, but Scott the site's owner has always wanted this forum to be insult-free and I am seemingly his obedient foot soldier :)

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chatterbears
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by chatterbears » May 27th, 2018, 3:40 am

Greta wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 1:52 am
Chatter, FYI you are speaking with two women, and a man who has a cat avatar.

Let's not focus on this; I think we can all work out where I am coming from. Sorry to butt in, but Scott the site's owner has always wanted this forum to be insult-free and I am seemingly his obedient foot soldier :)
Understood. I tend to try to keep things productive and civil.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 27th, 2018, 11:39 am

Greta, I think Scott he should issue you a charger, even if dues to budget constraints you crochet your own chain-mail.

As to the topic, I suspect it's time for Chatterbears to sum up?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 27th, 2018, 1:00 pm

Alias wrote:
May 26th, 2018, 5:51 pm
I'm saying that preference, self-interest and expediency [as: "I like it" or "I want to" or "It's convenient and plentiful" or even "It's good for me"]
are not moral justifications for any choice.
Not in the collective sense, but ultimately these subjective reasonings, and appeals to emotion, are the basis for all morality.
But what he seems to miss is that for the vast majority of people, animals are not considered on the same basis as humans, and that's what makes his comments look so absurd.
`For myself, since I do not think a chicken is as capable of treating me with the same moral consideration as I am capable of showing it, he does not deserve equal moral consideration of the lowest human.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 27th, 2018, 1:26 pm

I realize that societal codes of conduct are transactional, but never considered my personal morality as a business deal.
The object of my compassion isn't required to earn that compassion: it's something I grant freely, for my own sake.

Similarly, when I compile a moral code, I do so on the basis of what I deem right or wrong, on grounds that make sense to me. I have categories of unacceptable action in given circumstances; I have rules to live by; I have a degree of discretion to apply in unexpected situations.
But my principles are not contingent on whether or not any entities that may benefit from my ethical decisions are equal moral agents.

For example, I would find it morally repugnant to take a little child's ice cream come, even though he would have no compunction about taking mine.
I don't lie to people just because they're stupider than I am, or kick cats because they don't have a rule against scratching me.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 27th, 2018, 1:44 pm

Alias wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 1:26 pm
But my principles are not contingent on whether or not any entities that may benefit from my ethical decisions are equal moral agents.

For example, I would find it morally repugnant to take a little child's ice cream come, even though he would have no compunction about taking mine.
I don't lie to people just because they're stupider than I am, or kick cats because they don't have a rule against scratching me.
Your statement is false as your example is inappropriate.
You do not bestow the same moral values on a rat, as you would a human.
A child is an equal moral agent as they are a person.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 27th, 2018, 3:13 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 1:44 pm
[But my principles are not contingent on whether or not any entities that may benefit from my ethical decisions are equal moral agents. ]

Your statement is false as your example is inappropriate.
How are you in a position to determine whether I'm lying?
You do not bestow the same moral values on a rat, as you would a human.
I didn't say anything about moral values.
In fact, I do not bestow moral values on anything or anyone - I have not the power or the authority to do so.
I can, and do, distribute compassion, pity, sympathy, esteem, empathy and regard in any way, and to anyone, as I see fit, or as I feel moved to do so. These responses are mine to give or withhold.
Nobody has the authority to decree how, or to whom, and on what basis I should dispense them.
A child is an equal moral agent as they are a person.
A child is a person. But he is not my equal in the capacity to make moral judgment or to take moral responsibility.
Therefore, under societal law, he has less autonomy and more immunity.
Generally in societal codes, as well as in my personal code, I do not have a right to take advantage of his weakness; it doesn't make him 'fair game'.
On the contrary, my personal moral code demands that I extend a greater degree or forbearance, even protection, to an inferior being than to a superior or an equal. That includes chickens and rabbits. They don't have to earn, or deserve that consideration; they don't have to reciprocate.
My principles rule my conduct. I don't impose my values on others.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 29th, 2018, 1:37 pm

Alias wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 3:13 pm
How are you in a position to determine whether I'm lying?
I'm not saying you are lying. I AM saying you are wrong.
I didn't say anything about moral values.
Yes you did. IN applying the phrase "equal moral agents." you are invoking a system of moral values without which it would not be possible to determine "equality".

In fact, I do not bestow moral values on anything or anyone - I have not the power or the authority to do so.
Then you are incapable of using the phrase "equal moral agents."
I can, and do, distribute compassion, pity, sympathy, esteem, empathy and regard in any way, and to anyone, as I see fit, or as I feel moved to do so. These responses are mine to give or withhold.
In other words you are bestowing moral values.
Nobody has the authority to decree how, or to whom, and on what basis I should dispense them.
and yet you do , and contradict yourself in doing so.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by -1- » May 29th, 2018, 3:16 pm

Alias wrote:
May 26th, 2018, 7:39 pm
If that is what I did, I apologize.
Apology accepted.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » May 29th, 2018, 3:39 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 1:37 pm
[I didn't say anything about moral values]
Yes you did. IN applying the phrase "equal moral agents." you are invoking a system of moral values without which it would not be possible to determine "equality".
Not at all. Even if 'invoke' were the same as 'say', I didn't do that, either.
An agent is one who acts. Agency has no assigned value. Equality can be of status, of worth, of quantity, of power or efficacy. In this case, the last meaning applies. The two agents cited do not have equal ability to act effectively, or to make moral judgments, or to take responsibility.

You stated that
since I do not think a chicken is as capable of treating me with the same moral consideration as I am capable of showing it, he does not deserve equal moral consideration of the lowest human.
My own view is that,
even though the child is not as capable of respecting my property rights as I am capable of respecting his, it woulds still be wrong for me to deprive him of his ice cream cone. For me, it is not a question of what he deserves, but of what I ought to do.
I do not bestow moral values ]
Then you are incapable of using the phrase "equal moral agents."
Don't be silly. I am quite capable of describing something someone has, even if I didn't give it to them.
[I can distribute compassion, pity, sympathy, esteem, empathy ...as I see fit]
In other words you are bestowing moral values.
Those are certainly other words, that have other meanings.
That list was not of values or moral anythings: those are emotional responses and attitudes to other life-forms. From those attitudes, and from considering the world as I encounter it, I build up a base of convictions and principles, from which I then derive rules for my own conduct.
Where morality comes in is at the distal end: whether I am consistent in upholding my own stated convictions in my actions.
[Nobody has the authority to decree how, or to whom, and on what basis I should dispense them. ]
and yet you do , and contradict yourself in doing so.
*sigh* Correction: Nobody other than myself has the authority to decree how, or to whom, and on what basis I should dispense them.

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SimpleGuy
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by SimpleGuy » June 2nd, 2018, 1:41 pm

The problem is that it is not wrong unless one gets to know the animal that you do eat. Many people then feel guilt or are sorry then for their deeds.

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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Thinking critical » June 7th, 2018, 8:09 am

chatterbears wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 6:24 am

Does anyone here eat animals, while also adhering to the moral trifecta (Empathy, compassion and ethical consistency)? If so, I'd like to know how?
In my opinion this is quite possible. We can still feel bad about the killing of animals, be compassionate towards the wellbeing of animals while supporting animals rights in regards to being treated as humanely as possible based on the circumstances and still go home and eat them without feeling bad.......I know I do.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by LuckyR » June 8th, 2018, 3:46 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
June 7th, 2018, 8:09 am
chatterbears wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 6:24 am

Does anyone here eat animals, while also adhering to the moral trifecta (Empathy, compassion and ethical consistency)? If so, I'd like to know how?
In my opinion this is quite possible. We can still feel bad about the killing of animals, be compassionate towards the wellbeing of animals while supporting animals rights in regards to being treated as humanely as possible based on the circumstances and still go home and eat them without feeling bad.......I know I do.
It is not only possible, but logical (though optional). Just as it is logical to use a gun for it's purpose of propelling bullets, it is logical to use a domesticated farm animal for it's purpose of being culled for it's nutritional content. Now, there are ethical and unethical ways of using guns (target practice and murder being examples) there are ethical and unethical ways of ranching and meat packing.
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Re: Animal Ethics - Is it wrong to eat animals?

Post by Alias » June 8th, 2018, 6:17 pm

LuckyR wrote:
June 8th, 2018, 3:46 pm
It is not only possible, but logical (though optional). Just as it is logical to use a gun for it's purpose of propelling bullets, it is logical to use a domesticated farm animal for it's purpose of being culled for it's nutritional content. Now, there are ethical and unethical ways of using guns (target practice and murder being examples) there are ethical and unethical ways of ranching and meat packing.
If power = right, that's all true.

Actually, the purpose of a gun is not to expel bullets - that is the methodwhereby it fulfills its purpose, which is the same as the purpose of bombs, spears and hand-grenades: to kill by inflicting physical damage on flesh. The purpose of target practice is to gain proficiency in the use of a gun, or bow, or slingshot, and thus be able to do more efficient killing, if and when the occasion arises.
People make a sport of it, for enjoyment, as they turn many serious activities into games and entertainment.

The purpose of a farm-animal is to be eaten, only because humans had the power to re-purpose an autonomous other species that they found in the wild.
And because humans have the power to designate some other species "game" or "trophy" or "vermin" or "surplus" or "potential disease vectors", it's equally logical to kill [cull, harvest, hunt, thin, exterminate] those other autonomous individuals for those human reasons.
People make a sport of it, for enjoyment.

It's a widely-applied ethic, with its own internal logic - and certainly optional - but I'm reasonably sure it's not predicated on the principles Chatterbears mentioned in the OP. Of course, those, too, are optional.

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