Is morality objective or subjective?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
Peter Holmes
Posts: 562
Joined: July 19th, 2017, 8:20 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

popeye1945 wrote: April 14th, 2021, 9:06 am Hi Peter,

"1 What we call objectivity is independence from opinion when considering the facts. So moral objectivism is the claim that there are moral facts."

1-OK, Objective independence, like the train that hit you is real. Moral objectivism, there are NO moral facts in the sense that an object is a fact.


"2 What we call a fact is a feature of reality that is or was the case, or a description of a feature of reality whose truth-value - classically, true or false - is independent from opinion."

2- A fact by your definition is an object, thus objectivism, thus the physical world as object to a conscious being.



"3 Moral objectivism is the claim that there are moral features of reality - moral rightness and wrongness - that are or were the case. The burden of proof for the existence of such features of reality is with moral objectivists - unmet so far, to my knowledge."

3- There are no moral features to reality, the physical world is meaningless, thus no moral factors. Things, objects just are, and as we experience them the experience tends to become the meanings of that particular object/experience. Apparent reality is a biological readout, a summation of the bodies experience of the physcial world.


4 Moral subjectivism is the claim that there are no moral facts - moral features of reality - but only moral opinions expressed by means of moral assertions with no factual truth-value independent from opinion.

4- Yes, there are no moral facts, no moral features of reality. Through experience and humanities creative process, it trys to establish moral factors, rules, guidelines in the interest of our common biology, which tends to be similar across the board. Reality on an individual level is perception/experience, to the group it is agreement, both are based upon opinion, but the collective tends to be more reliable.



Given this argument, I suggest your conflation of what you call confusingly call meaning - as bestowed by conscious 'subjects' on 'objects' - with moral assertions is conceptually incoherent.

There was no argument presented, just definitions. Define meaning for me as clearly as you can. You could try being a little less arrogant as well.
[/quote]

Sorry for the arrogance. I'll try to be better.

I think we're agreeing with each other in essence. To me, it's methodologically crucial to keep the three things - features of reality, what we believe and know, and what we say - separate - and that most if not all mistakes in philosophy come from muddling them up. So I'm with you on insisting that what we call 'reality' has no inherent meaning, description, names, categories, sets - and so on.

I think the 'justified true belief' (JTB) definition of knowledge illustrates the delusion of mistaking what we say about things for things themselves. The JTB truth condition (one of three) is 'S knows that p iff p is true', identifying a state-of-affairs with a proposition - which is absurd.

You ask for my definition of meaning. I want to point out that we use the word define and its cognates in at least two radically different ways: to define a word is to explain how we use it or could use it; but to define a thing is to describe it, which is a completely different linguistic operation.

So what does 'defining meaning' involve? My point is that, pending evidence for the existence of so-called abstract things, belief that they exist is irrational. So the abstract noun meaning is not the name of a thing of some kind that therefore exists somewhere, somehow, and that can be described. All we can do is explain how we use or could use the word 'meaning' and its cognates.

So I'd just point out the many and various contexts and ways in which we use the word - which is what the later Wittgenstein came to realise: meaning is use, and nowhere else. The meaning of a noun is not the thing it names, but rather what we do with the noun. And, among other implications, this exposes the fallacy of correspondence theories of truth.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by popeye1945 »

The name is not the thing, is not a revelation to me, but I can understand your coming at it from a higher level. You obviously are a cut above the average poster. Peace!
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021