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Is morality objective or subjective?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 30th, 2018, 3:29 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 8:45 am
As I have stated in a previous post it is an emperical fact that no living creature on the planet with the ability to experience physical pain and suffering, will intentionally and knowingly put itself into a position which will result in immense life threatening agonising pain, just for the sake of it.
Not even this is true with all human activity.

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Thinking critical
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Thinking critical » July 30th, 2018, 6:17 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 3:29 pm
Thinking critical wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 8:45 am
As I have stated in a previous post it is an emperical fact that no living creature on the planet with the ability to experience physical pain and suffering, will intentionally and knowingly put itself into a position which will result in immense life threatening agonising pain, just for the sake of it.
Not even this is true with all human activity.
Would you care to provide an explanation for this response? An example maybe?
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 30th, 2018, 6:19 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 6:17 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 3:29 pm


Not even this is true with all human activity.
Would you care to provide an explanation for this response? An example maybe?
Suicide
self harm
Thrill seeking
dangerous sports
Sado masochism
volunteering for conflict

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Thinking critical
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Thinking critical » July 30th, 2018, 6:36 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 6:19 pm
Thinking critical wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 6:17 pm


Would you care to provide an explanation for this response? An example maybe?
Suicide
self harm
Thrill seeking
dangerous sports
Sado masochism
volunteering for conflict
Thanks, there will always be exceptions to the rule, hence why I stated "for the sake of it".
In other words we wouldn't except someone to go sit in a large fire while drinking beers on the beach with their mates because they were bored or felt like setting themselves on fire to see what felt like, nor would we expect to seem someone just start cutting off all there fingers and toes to see how much it bleeds.

We tend to have an innate tendency and overwhelming desire to prevent ourselves from being significantly injured. I get that there are people out there that get addicted to the fear, adrenaline and other chemical reactions that take place which are intended to steer us away from such situations, yet even adrenaline junkies, stunt doubles and mentally unstable individuals have their limits. Sooner or later their body will force them to realise that what they're doing to themselves is wrong, one way or another.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 31st, 2018, 4:38 am

Thinking critical wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 6:36 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
July 30th, 2018, 6:19 pm


Suicide
self harm
Thrill seeking
dangerous sports
Sado masochism
volunteering for conflict
Thanks, there will always be exceptions to the rule, hence why I stated "for the sake of it".
In other words we wouldn't except someone to go sit in a large fire while drinking beers on the beach with their mates because they were bored or felt like setting themselves on fire to see what felt like, nor would we expect to seem someone just start cutting off all there fingers and toes to see how much it bleeds.
Depends what "it" is.
People do crazy things for the sake of many 'ITS'.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 31st, 2018, 4:39 am

.... including cutting fingers off to see how it bleeds.

Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes » July 31st, 2018, 5:15 am

Facts: 1 Self-harm physically harms the self. 2 People tend not to physically self-harm.
Value-judgement: People shouldn't physically self-harm.

There is no connection - logical or otherwise - between the facts and the value-judgement.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » July 31st, 2018, 5:57 am

Peter Holmes wrote:
July 31st, 2018, 5:15 am
Facts: 1 Self-harm physically harms the self. 2 People tend not to physically self-harm.
Value-judgement: People shouldn't physically self-harm.

There is no connection - logical or otherwise - between the facts and the value-judgement.
Fact: people who self harm justify it by saying it makes them feel real or alive, others say it removes a mental pain.
Value judgement: people should self harm if they want to.

Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes » July 31st, 2018, 6:38 am

Agreed. I wasn't endorsing the value-judgement 'people shouldn't physically self-harm' - but rather showing the mistake of trying to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'.

anonymous66
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by anonymous66 » August 9th, 2018, 8:35 am

Peter Holmes wrote:
July 17th, 2018, 3:03 am
Felix

1 The assertion that a desire is morally right or wrong is a judgement, not a falsifiable factual claim. If you disagree, please give an example.

2 You don't seem to understand the equivocation on the word 'good'. Please give an example of what you call a real good, and an example of what you call an apparent good. We can go on from there.

3 Our natural needs are objective, but 'natural rights' are not. Rights are things granted to people by decisions based on moral judgements.

4 In the assertion 'we should not desire what is really good for us, or desire what is really bad for us', the word 'should' is critical, because it indicates a judgement. You are still confusing values judgements with factual assertions, as does Aristotle.
How would you falsify the assertion, "To be taken seriously, a (claim, concept, etc.)must be falsifiable?" <----that itself is not a falsifiable factual claim.

Steve3007
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Steve3007 » August 9th, 2018, 8:46 am

How would you falsify the assertion, "To be taken seriously, a (claim, concept, etc.)must be falsifiable?" <----that itself is not a falsifiable factual claim.
I would line up a whole load of people and make falsifiable claims to some of them and unfalsifiable claims to the others. Then I would note down who laughs.

Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes » August 9th, 2018, 10:08 am

anonymous66

1 A concept isn't a falsifiable kind of thing.
2 A factual assertion is falsifiable because it claims something that may not be the case.
3 The above factual assertion is falsifiable.
4 The property 'capable of being taken seriously' isn't at issue here.

Sorry if I'm missing your point. Can you spell it out, to save time?

anonymous66
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by anonymous66 » August 9th, 2018, 10:23 am

Peter Holmes wrote:
August 9th, 2018, 10:08 am
anonymous66

1 A concept isn't a falsifiable kind of thing.
2 A factual assertion is falsifiable because it claims something that may not be the case.
3 The above factual assertion is falsifiable.
4 The property 'capable of being taken seriously' isn't at issue here.

Sorry if I'm missing your point. Can you spell it out, to save time?
It seems to me that you are making the assumption: "In order to be taken seriously assertion X must be falsifiable."
Where X is the claim that a desire is morally right or wrong.

I'm pointing out that the assertion "In order to be taken seriously, an assertion must be falsifiable" is not itself falsifiable. You are yourself making an unfalsifiable judgment about the nature of assertions- your assertion "In order to be taken seriously, an assertion must be falsifiable" is not a falsifiable factual claim.

Or is there some falsifiable fact you can appeal to in order to convince us that your judgment that "assertions must be falsifiable in order to be taken seriously" is correct?

anonymous66
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by anonymous66 » August 9th, 2018, 10:34 am

anonymous66 wrote:
August 9th, 2018, 10:23 am
Peter Holmes wrote:
August 9th, 2018, 10:08 am
anonymous66

1 A concept isn't a falsifiable kind of thing.
2 A factual assertion is falsifiable because it claims something that may not be the case.
3 The above factual assertion is falsifiable.
4 The property 'capable of being taken seriously' isn't at issue here.

Sorry if I'm missing your point. Can you spell it out, to save time?
It seems to me that you are making the assumption: "In order to be taken seriously assertion X must be falsifiable."
Where X is the claim that a desire is morally right or wrong.

I'm pointing out that the assertion "In order to be taken seriously, an assertion must be falsifiable" is not itself falsifiable. You are yourself making an unfalsifiable judgment about the nature of assertions- your assertion "In order to be taken seriously, an assertion must be falsifiable" is not a falsifiable factual claim.

Or is there some falsifiable fact you can appeal to in order to convince us that your judgment that "assertions must be falsifiable in order to be taken seriously" is correct?
Replace 'capable of being taken seriously' with "valid".

It seems to me that you are making the assumption: "In order to be valid assertion X must be falsifiable."
Where X is the claim that a desire is morally right or wrong.

I'm pointing out that the assertion "In order to be valid, an assertion must be falsifiable" is not itself falsifiable. You are yourself making an unfalsifiable judgment about the nature of assertions- your assertion "A valid assertion must be falsifiable" is not a falsifiable factual claim.

Or is there some falsifiable fact you can appeal to in order to convince us that your judgment that "valid assertions must be falsifiable" is correct?

Peter Holmes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes » August 9th, 2018, 11:23 am

anonymous66

Thanks, but the property of being valid is also not at issue here. (And I assume you don't mean logically valid, because that doesn't apply to factual assertions, which are (classically) only true or false.

What we've been discussing is the claim that a moral assertion, such as 'slavery is wrong', makes a factual claim - one that is true or false. And I argue that it doesn't, because it expresses a value-judgement. If your point is that moral assertions are, in everyday parlance, 'valid' - I couldn't agree more.

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