Is the end of human lying inevitable?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
ktz
Posts: 169
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 12:21 am
Favorite Philosopher: Habermas

Re: Is the end of human lying inevitable?

Post by ktz »

chewybrian wrote: December 1st, 2018, 5:46 am
TryingMyBest wrote: November 29th, 2018, 5:00 pm Thank you for your time.
I have convinced myself that the end of human lying is inevitable for the following reasons. (Please correct me if I am missing something.)
Lies can never be proven true and truth is an ever-expanding juggernaut.
Lies promote false beliefs while truth is defendable.
It will be considered nonsensical to lie because lies promote false beliefs and false beliefs have no value.
Some people lie to "save their own skin" but pleading-the-fifth is always a better option.
Some people lie because they have been deceived into thinking that lying will benefit them. This is the great deceit: that lying will benefit you. Deceit is a lie, by definition. The end of deceit will coincide with the end of lying. Universal realization that, by definition, "deceit is a lie" will cause the end of the deception that lies are useful because humans naturally want to be undeceived. Therefore, lies will eventually cease to exist. As long as society continues to value and expand truth, the end of deceit (and the end of human lying) is inevitable.
I will close with a few truisms about truth. True progress is the progression of truth. True love is the love of truth. True power is the power of truth.
I appreciate and agree with what you say in a sense, and I hope you are right. But, history is against it. You could make a similar case against crime. People should realize it rarely benefits them in them end, and technology should make it increasingly difficult. Yet, criminals turn that technology into a tool for crime, and crime continues. Technology can be a powerful tool for lying as well.

In the long run, I think the trend you predict depends on the political system. In many parts of the world, the truth is a deadly secret that can not even be spoken. As long as we allow these corrupt systems to continue, they will use technology to make their lies more powerful. 1984 is here already. Hopefully, free societies can survive the greed and stupidity of their own people; this seems to be in doubt. If not, we might enter a new Dark Ages, and truth could be as endangered across the world as it is in North Korea.

I'm not making any prediction, and I am not against your sentiments. I am only saying that 'inevitable' seems overly optimistic.
I agree with Steve's initial reaction to the OP and sympathize with the OP and the basic sentiment behind his position. Of interest to the OP might be Professor Healy's discussion of telescopic evolution and conclusion from the movie Waking Life: https://vimeo.com/26319794

That being said, I agree with Chewy for the following reasons:

-- It's not guaranteed that the continued development and vindication of advanced technological tools and methods for revealing deceit is guaranteed. Firstly because as our truth-detection tools improve, so do our lie-creation tools -- see recent articles about deep fake technology, some discussion elsewhere on this forum is here: https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums ... =6&t=15875. Secondly, I'm reminded of the anecdotal conversation with Einstein:
Professor Albert Einstein was asked by friends at a recent dinner party what new weapons might be employed in World War III. Appalled at the implications, he shook his head.

After several minutes of meditation, he said. “I don’t know what weapons might be used in World War III. But there isn’t any doubt what weapons will be used in World War IV.”

“And what are those?” a guest asked.

“Stone spears,” said Einstein.
Our species unfortunately faces very real challenges that threaten our current methods of existence, and whether we overcome those challenges is far from certain in my view.

-- Next, the proposition that lies have no value is difficult to defend from a pragmatic perspective. Even if I agree with you that in the long run, we all pay the price for our lies -- which I do -- in the short term lying can have very concrete effects. Most apparent examples in recent history would be in American political discourse with Trump's regular stream of falsifiable claims, as validated by sites like Politifact, Snopes and Factcheck.org. The lies he tells help obfuscate opposing fact-based positions, help him rally his base, and assists in his progress towards his political aims. Even if in the long run, they may have a negative outcome -- e.g. an investigation into obstruction of justice -- to say that there is no short term value would require a potentially awkward conversation about what value means. Lies only have no value if in every case you are caught AND punished.

-- In agreement with Chewy, the fact of the matter is -- even if we were to educate every individual of the uselessness of lying and how "deceit is a lie", some people just gotta learn things the hard way. Children typically begin lying between two and four years of age, and some simply never grow out of it.
You may have a heart of gold, but so does a hard-boiled egg.
User avatar
ktz
Posts: 169
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 12:21 am
Favorite Philosopher: Habermas

Re: Is the end of human lying inevitable?

Post by ktz »

TryingMyBest wrote: November 29th, 2018, 5:00 pm I will close with a few truisms about truth. True progress is the progression of truth. True love is the love of truth. True power is the power of truth.
To quote David Foster Wallace, "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
You may have a heart of gold, but so does a hard-boiled egg.
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Is the end of human lying inevitable?

Post by Fooloso4 »

LuckyR:
If Trump would have been elected before the advent of social media, he would have been gone soon afterwards (since he couldn't call Fake News, since there was only one news source in the public's mind). So he is merely the first to seriously take advantage of the Post Truth era, as opposed to the cause of it.
I agree that Trump was not the cause, but he and his people have been major contributors. Social media plays a large part but so does Fox News, Sinclair Broadcasting, and talk radio, all of which attempted to discredit “mainstream media”. Then there is the long lived and ongoing Russian disinformation campaign, which goes back to the Cold War, takes advantage of all forms of media, and occasionally finds its way into even the most reliable sources.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is the end of human lying inevitable?

Post by LuckyR »

Fooloso4 wrote: December 1st, 2018, 12:47 pm LuckyR:
If Trump would have been elected before the advent of social media, he would have been gone soon afterwards (since he couldn't call Fake News, since there was only one news source in the public's mind). So he is merely the first to seriously take advantage of the Post Truth era, as opposed to the cause of it.
I agree that Trump was not the cause, but he and his people have been major contributors. Social media plays a large part but so does Fox News, Sinclair Broadcasting, and talk radio, all of which attempted to discredit “mainstream media”. Then there is the long lived and ongoing Russian disinformation campaign, which goes back to the Cold War, takes advantage of all forms of media, and occasionally finds its way into even the most reliable sources.
There is truth within your post but the issues are very nuanced. For example: Fox news is nothing special, historically speaking, but when fed a constant stream of Breitbartesque "experts" (with qualifications of ?) to put a face to faceless online dreck, turns the final Fox product into a Post Truth era influencer.
"As usual... it depends."
Fooloso4
Posts: 3601
Joined: February 28th, 2014, 4:50 pm

Re: Is the end of human lying inevitable?

Post by Fooloso4 »

LuckyR:
Fox news is nothing special, historically speaking …
What makes Fox special is that a) it is “mainstream media” that positioned itself as the alternative to “mainstream media”, b) it has a large and identifiable viewer demographic, c) it became Trump’s propaganda machine, d) it echoes the story put forth by Trump and others under investigation that Mueller is forcing false confessions. A significant part of the voting public, consisting mostly of self identifying Republican conservatives, may be persuaded to believe their beleaguered president, and this may be enough to persuade politicians more interested in winning than the truth to ignore the findings of the Mueller investigation. Whether this move is successful or not, the “truth is not the truth”, it becomes a matter of picking sides, of “alternative facts”.

Because of its unified base and singular voice I think Fox News may be more influential than social media. Fox viewers trust them in a way they may not trust the various and conflicting social media stories.
User avatar
Thrylix
Posts: 70
Joined: January 11th, 2014, 2:42 am

Re: Is the end of human lying inevitable?

Post by Thrylix »

No way. Even machines can lie, contrary to belief.
User avatar
MrSpock-mm
New Trial Member
Posts: 6
Joined: April 22nd, 2019, 2:40 am

Re: Is the end of human lying inevitable?

Post by MrSpock-mm »

Lies can last from hundreds of years to billions of years.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021