Hanging up the phone on others is...

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Hello Forum,

I just hang up the phone after picking up the line. When I picked up, I said, "hello" and given the number of seconds I had to wait before someone said something, I realized that this was due to an automated dialer that calls people all the time so that telephone marketers can focus on just talking to people and not waiting to a ringing sound.

Instead, it is me who does the waiting. I think this is wrong. If you want to speak to me, you got to be there when I pick up the line. So, my policy is to hang up immediately, without any concern, the moment someone starts talking, or even before. Is this rude behavior?

And a more deeper question, is it really possible to be rude to another while talking on the phone?

My basic assumption is that when you speak to a phone, you are not and cannot be speaking to a real person that way. Consequently, you cannot really be rude.

However, even if my rudeness is not real, it is still being perceived by a machine. Should this matter? When people tell you "talk to the hand", does it still matters to be polite, as if our habit of politeness must never be broken, even when our politeness makes no real sense?

This question tears me appart. I see it as evidence that people have not conquered fire yet, as what comes out of that phone is more like fire than it is like some human discussing, or trying to discuss things with you.

If the voice of the phone is not any human's voice, then how can we copyright it? If we can't morally copyright the stuff that the phone produces, how can we organize ourselves otherwise? This issue also connects with the idea of wills: once you die, your will cannot be accomplished because you aren't there anymore. If we understand this, we realize that wills are likely immoral too. I think not enough reasoning goes on in our heads as we are too busy respecting and organizing our stupid culture.

When you get to your red light, no one is giving you your signal, you just act as if you were being given a signal. But if no one really gave you your signal, aren't you "Just following the orders" like a machine, when you respect your signal? Isn't that too morally dubious? I suspect that we should avoid surrounding our selves with a technology that mimics us and we should especially beware of those who benefit from pushing technology this way onto people. We need justice first if we are to progress and not more technological development.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Eduk »

I'm not obeying a traffic lights will. I'm obeying the road conventions of the will of all those who made and obey the road conventions as well as the planners and engineers who built and maintain the light.
I don't know how to say this without coming across as rude or making a personal attack but I'm wondering how your thoughts can be so wide of reality? And just as importantly how well you realise this?
For example I am a terrible singer, but I do realise this.
Unknown means unknown.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Steve3007 »

This OP appears to be a bit of a confused jumble of ideas, but its central theme appears to be: Is it wrong to be rude to machines or to people who are paid to act like machines?

Personally, I still have the residual habit of politeness mentioned in the OP. I even find it difficult to be abrupt or rude to "Alexa" - the computer controlled voice used by my Amazon Echo (much to the amusement of my kids who, having grown up in this world of HAL-esque automatons, have absolutely no such qualms). But that residual politeness is rapidly fading. I have gradually learnt to hang up abruptly on both cold callers and on calls from automated voices that are recorded messages triggered to start speaking, in imitation of a real caller, when I say "hello".

Obviously it's not rude to be abrupt with those automated voices, or with Alexa, because they're not human. But is it rude when the cold caller on the phone is actually a person, and you know they are? If that person is paid to call thousands of people per day and read out the same speech, then maybe not. In that particular type of social interaction both sides know the score, and I doubt very much whether I am causing any offence. Likewise, in the social interaction consisting of a phone call with my mother we also both know the score. In that case hanging up abruptly would be very rude indeed.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Felix »

Eduk: I'm not obeying a traffic lights will. I'm obeying the road conventions of the will of all those who made and obey the road conventions as well as the planners and engineers who built and maintain the light.
That's just a round about way of saying "I'm obeying the law." If it was very early in the morning, and there was not a car on the road except yours, would you sit there at a red light until it changed? - i .e., when no one else would be affected if you drove through it? If so, are you not obeying a senseless law?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Eduk »

when no one else would be affected if you drove through it? If so, are you not obeying a senseless law?
I have on occasion driven through a red light. But it has to be pretty exceptional. Because other road users may be relying on me to follow the rules I need to be extra sure that I have not made a mistake (it being late at night isn't good enough).
Also if no one had invented red lights then, given the aptitude, I would.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Eduk wrote: January 6th, 2019, 5:42 am I'm not obeying a traffic lights will. I'm obeying the road conventions of the will of all those who made and obey the road conventions as well as the planners and engineers who built and maintain the lights
Good to know. Know whom to trust. How many were killed or injurred on their master plan?
Eduk wrote: January 6th, 2019, 5:42 am I
I don't know how to say this without coming across as rude or making a personal attack but I'm wondering how your thoughts can be so wide of reality? And just as importantly how well you realise this?
For example I am a terrible singer, but I do realise this.
You know what they told him after some guy came out from the caves in which they lived and saw the sun and then came back to the shadows and tried to explain the world to them? I think it is in Plato's cave story.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by h_k_s »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: January 5th, 2019, 5:32 pm Hello Forum,

I just hang up the phone after picking up the line. When I picked up, I said, "hello" and given the number of seconds I had to wait before someone said something, I realized that this was due to an automated dialer that calls people all the time so that telephone marketers can focus on just talking to people and not waiting to a ringing sound.

Instead, it is me who does the waiting. I think this is wrong. If you want to speak to me, you got to be there when I pick up the line. So, my policy is to hang up immediately, without any concern, the moment someone starts talking, or even before. Is this rude behavior?

And a more deeper question, is it really possible to be rude to another while talking on the phone?

My basic assumption is that when you speak to a phone, you are not and cannot be speaking to a real person that way. Consequently, you cannot really be rude.

However, even if my rudeness is not real, it is still being perceived by a machine. Should this matter? When people tell you "talk to the hand", does it still matters to be polite, as if our habit of politeness must never be broken, even when our politeness makes no real sense?

This question tears me appart. I see it as evidence that people have not conquered fire yet, as what comes out of that phone is more like fire than it is like some human discussing, or trying to discuss things with you.

If the voice of the phone is not any human's voice, then how can we copyright it? If we can't morally copyright the stuff that the phone produces, how can we organize ourselves otherwise? This issue also connects with the idea of wills: once you die, your will cannot be accomplished because you aren't there anymore. If we understand this, we realize that wills are likely immoral too. I think not enough reasoning goes on in our heads as we are too busy respecting and organizing our stupid culture.

When you get to your red light, no one is giving you your signal, you just act as if you were being given a signal. But if no one really gave you your signal, aren't you "Just following the orders" like a machine, when you respect your signal? Isn't that too morally dubious? I suspect that we should avoid surrounding our selves with a technology that mimics us and we should especially beware of those who benefit from pushing technology this way onto people. We need justice first if we are to progress and not more technological development.
I answer these calls in Spanish or German so that when a real person comes on the line they are dazed and confused about the foreign language. It is a fun game, and you get to waste their time back.

This is called (by Herodotus the ancient historian) as "tit for tat".
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Eduk »

Empiricist-Bruno can you speak a little more clearly, I have no idea what you are talking about. Who's master plan? And what's your point about Plato's cave.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:08 pm This OP appears to be a bit of a confused jumble of ideas, but its central theme appears to be: Is it wrong to be rude to machines or to people who are paid to act like machines?
Yes, it is a bit of a mishmash. I wanted you to be sure you knew you could take this from a wide variety of angles. I think I didn't really mean to be that specific in my question but you have touched on the subject I wanted to hear about, thank you.
Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:08 pmPersonally, I still have the residual habit of politeness mentioned in the OP. I even find it difficult to be abrupt or rude to "Alexa" - the computer controlled voice used by my Amazon Echo (much to the amusement of my kids who, having grown up in this world of HAL-esque automatons, have absolutely no such qualms).
You seem to be saying that your kids are different from you. This technology has made them different. Technology is changing humanity and we don't question it. Can your kids be described as more desensitized? If they practise being rude to robots all day, won't it be more easy for them to show similar rudeness toward each other? Who is there to warn us about such danger? Who is there to warn your kids?
Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:08 pm
But that residual politeness is rapidly fading. I have gradually learnt to hang up abruptly on both cold callers and on calls from automated voices that are recorded messages triggered to start speaking, in imitation of a real caller, when I say "hello".
Here, the big chasm between my views and yours are in full display. To me, hanging up the phone on others is simply turning the machine off. The notion of another involved with the machine that I handle is simply not real. Hanging up the phone on others is an expression created by manipulative people who try to make you feel guilty about what you do even if none is ever involved.

Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:08 pmObviously it's not rude to be abrupt with those automated voices, or with Alexa, because they're not human.
A phone is a phone: it isn't sometimes human but I fully recognize you can always try and ignore the difference, which means you may "act" as if it were human. Should you be doing this? There is definitely value in acting but does it adequately stands for real life?
Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:08 pm But is it rude when the cold caller on the phone is actually a person, and you know they are? If that person is paid to call thousands of people per day and read out the same speech, then maybe not.
In my view, if call you and the phone disconnects, it represent the phone's failure to connect with anyone. Even if you were to think you are behaving rudely toward another, no ill effect what so ever may reach the person you may think you are offending.
Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:08 pmIn that particular type of social interaction both sides know the score, and I doubt very much whether I am causing any offence.
They want you to feel guilty so that next time you do talk with them. To make you feel guilty, they will try and convince you that you were being hurtful and caused offense to them. You are open to that idea.
Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:08 pm Likewise, in the social interaction consisting of a phone call with my mother we also both know the score. In that case hanging up abruptly would be very rude indeed.
Right, she taught you how to use the phone politely. But our parents may not have given enough thoughts about this. If they had, I suspect they would have acted differently about technology.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
User avatar
ktz
Posts: 169
Joined: November 9th, 2018, 12:21 am
Favorite Philosopher: Habermas

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by ktz »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: January 6th, 2019, 7:38 pm You seem to be saying that your kids are different from you. This technology has made them different. Technology is changing humanity and we don't question it. Can your kids be described as more desensitized? If they practise being rude to robots all day, won't it be more easy for them to show similar rudeness toward each other? Who is there to warn us about such danger? Who is there to warn your kids?
Steve3007 wrote: January 6th, 2019, 2:08 pm
But that residual politeness is rapidly fading. I have gradually learnt to hang up abruptly on both cold callers and on calls from automated voices that are recorded messages triggered to start speaking, in imitation of a real caller, when I say "hello".
Here, the big chasm between my views and yours are in full display. To me, hanging up the phone on others is simply turning the machine off. The notion of another involved with the machine that I handle is simply not real. Hanging up the phone on others is an expression created by manipulative people who try to make you feel guilty about what you do even if none is ever involved.
I actually think some of the consequences described above are not an inherent reaction to technology, but are instead specific to the development of advertising infrastructure. If the robots were helpful and careful to avoid not bothering you unnecessarily, instead of trying to sell you stupid stuff you don't need, there would be no need for any sort of backlash. Instead, marketing professionals devote day and night to the study of how to exploit natural and constructive human tendencies like politeness, familiarity, and reciprocity to get people to buy more of their product -- which product? Doesn't matter the value or contribution to the user -- skills get used exclusively by the highest bidder.

With the development of mass communication infrastructure of newspaper and radio, we got the (highly controversial at the time) rise of modern advertising, starting with Claude Hopkins, Clark Stanley and the rest of the sleazy patent medicine guys from whom we get the term snake oil salesmen. From there post-WW2 we continue through McCarthyism and the terrifying propaganda expert Edward Bernays who has quotes like:
Bernays wrote:“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ...We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. ...In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind. ... Men (people) are rarely aware of the real reasons which motivate their actions.
and finally getting to our modern infrastructure of cold-call phishing and what amounts to a highly inefficient value extraction by Facebook and Google, who essentially charge a middleman's tax between seller and buyer, enriching themselves so that they can sell the free world out to Putin's Russian bots (Facebook) and China's censorship (Google).

I believe all this to have the iatrogenic effect of fostering a natural state of intense cynicism throughout our society, not to mention the consequences you have noted: a steadily trained de-emphasis on politeness, empathy, and altruistic attitudes. Because, in the system we have developed, otherwise you quickly end up a sucker to those who will gladly exploit your polite upbringing to get you to part with your money. I suggest anyone interested in reading more on the topic to check out Tim Wu, whose oeuvre covers these topics, most notably his 2016 book The Attention Merchants.
You may have a heart of gold, but so does a hard-boiled egg.
User avatar
Intellectual_Savnot
Posts: 97
Joined: November 26th, 2018, 11:07 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Myself
Location: Wokeville, California
Contact:

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Intellectual_Savnot »

Hey man I didn't read all of this because personally I think this conversation is a little bit >insert rude<. But let me just say this before I lose my last dying brain cells from typing this forsaken message on this forsaken topic: If it is rude, it is inherently wrong.
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Eduk »

If it is rude, it is inherently wrong.
Just wondering how you are defining if it is rude as that seems key to me.
Take this example. I am called by a telemarketer who starts their spiel. I hang up.
Is that rude?
If you believe that this is rude then I would contest your being rude is inherently wrong statement.
Unknown means unknown.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by LuckyR »

A couple of things: it is completely possible to be rude over the phone, but rude does not equal wrong, necessarily. However, the OP's example is not a good one to demonstrate rudeness, since the rudeness was originally perpetrated by the telemarketer, thus any response is appropriate, rude or not.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

LuckyR wrote: January 8th, 2019, 4:56 am A couple of things: it is completely possible to be rude over the phone, but rude does not equal wrong, necessarily. However, the OP's example is not a good one to demonstrate rudeness, since the rudeness was originally perpetrated by the telemarketer, thus any response is appropriate, rude or not.
To all people who think you can be rude over the phone, can you please first specify if you also think that an elevator can be rude to you in closing its door unexpectedly on you, and if that isn't rudeness, why not?
I think rude is not something machine or automated system can be, even if they imitate those who can be rude.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
Eduk
Posts: 2466
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Hanging up the phone on others is...

Post by Eduk »

Empiricist-Bruno When you talk to someone on the phone there is a person on the other side of the phone isn't there?
Unknown means unknown.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021