Being vegan for ethical reasons.

[Kaz_1983]

I'm not studying philosophy or anything but I've been following Cosmic Skeptic on YouTube for awhile now..

He's currently studying philosophy at Oxford University in the UK.... see I can remember from as far back as 2017 he mentioned that he wanted to become vegan sometime in the future.. anyways he recently he has turned vegan for ethical reasons... now I'm vegan, originally because my wife wanted to be vegetarian but now I'm mainly don't consume meat or dairy for ethical reasons...

Alex O'Connor a.k.a. Cosmic Sceptic who recently was had a two hour podcast with Matt Dillahunty from The Atheist Experience... watching his recent videos got me thinking and Alex too it seems. (If anybody knows how to embed YouTube videos let me know)

After seriously thinking about veganism, heclones who came to the conclusion that every day of his like you is committed an act that is so immoral that I can hardly bear to think about it, "I would love to meat but I can't fool myself".. anyways he went on to say that:

1. Either somebody convinces him that his arguments are flawed.

Or..

2. He will just have to suck it up and align his beliefs with his actions.

His arguments that he listed:

1. We are more intelligent than other animals, in other words if there was a tray back to human would like, we would treat them as we treat animals.. this is called "name the trait"

2. Animals feel less pain than we do, a good example is how that a shark has a sense of smell that is way more sensitive than a humans.. isn't possible that a pig can feel pain a lot more acutely than we do?

3. Instead of entering the world as a human, not only being black, white, rich or poor - you enter it in a box not knowing what you are? you could be a brick, you might be a pig or cow but if you're lucky to be a human, that's great..... anyways now design society.

If you're a brick it wouldn't really matter, you're not sentient and you don't feel pain, who cares if a person sits on you or your part of a brick wall.

If you're a pig or a cow the first thing you would do is abolished in the meat industry, besides there's only a small chance that you would NOT be in a factory farm, awaiting your death, just so people could eat you.

If you're a human, happy days - it's just like being a white person rather than a black person 100 years ago. Afterall you can tell yourself that you need to eat animals to survive, if you want.

4. "All animals are equal" .. surely it's ridiculous to suggest that we are equal to a pig for example but that was said regarding the difference between white people are black people but that completely misses the point.. we don't condemn racism because all races are equal but rather acknowledge that these differences do not matter and everybody is equal.

There are more but those are the 4 most important.

[h_k_s]

I have an aversion to eating intelligent animals, such as monkeys, pigs, and lambs because these animals know what is going on with their slaughter and they cry.

I have no problem with fish or seafood because these creatures do not have a cerebral cortex and therefore have no idea what is going on. They simply go numb out of the water. My favorite foods are actually lobster and abalone.

I hunt deer and elk with a magnum hunting rifle which hurts to shoot because I want them instantaneously dead. Since we killed off the wolves and lions that normally prey on these animals their populations would go out of control if we did not hunt them. And we only hunt the superfluous males who are not needed for mating anyway. Although sometimes when their populations get out of control we must hunt some of the females as well. The issue here is to balance nature. When I bag a deer or elk this comes to 100 to 500 lbs of meat for my freezer which saves me $500 to $2500 dollars in meat costs. And I don't hunt when my freezer is still full.

So in a good year I won't eat any mammal meat other than what I hunt for. The rest of the time I am eating fish or seafood.

You don't need to go full vegan. You can rather just avoid slaughtered beef, lamb, and pork.

There will always be surplus veal anytime there is a dairy industry. But it is a waste of resources to raise these calves to steers and then slaughter them when they are older.

And the dairy industry is very important to me because I drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of cheeses.

[Alias]

I have some trouble following your sentence structure, but I'll take a stab at the logic. (Could be wrong.)

1. We are more intelligent than other animals, in other words if there was a tray back to human would like, we would treat them as we treat animals.. this is called "name the trait"

If they're not "like us" they don't count? So we'll compare intelligence. They're not as smart as us, it's okay to treat them badly. Is that the idea?
The counter argument to that is: because we are more intelligent, we should bring more thought to the relationship. We also have a lot more control over the environment and food sources.

2. Animals feel less pain than we do,

That's a made-up BS excuse.
I heard an American general say it about Vietnamese people.

3. Instead of entering the world as a human, not only being black, white, rich or poor - you enter it in a box not knowing what you are? you could be a brick, you might be a pig or cow but if you're lucky to be a human, that's great..... anyways now design society.

The veil of ignorance extended? I like it!https://ethicsunwrapped.utexas.edu/glos ... -ignorance

4. "All animals are equal" .. surely it's ridiculous to suggest that we are equal to a pig for example but that was said regarding the difference between white people are black people but that completely misses the point.. we don't condemn racism because all races are equal but rather acknowledge that these differences do not matter and everybody is equal.

That's going to be hard sell. The principle of equality among humans is already much contested; most of them won't even consider the equality of another species.
One fact is: every species of plant, insect and animal currently alive is evolved the exact same degree. Some, like ants and octopi reached a level of survival capability that required almost no correction, millions of years before some other species, like apes, branched off and need lots more work before they stabilize in some final form. So, we can look at equality in various ways.
Another fact is: everything that's alive and wants to stay alive has to eat something. Most species don't have a choice of foods: they've adapted to a specific diet, or their environment provides a limited diet. Omnivores are more adaptable, and technological omnivores have almost unlimited choice of what food to consume and how to procure it.
There may be equality of value, but there is certainly nothing like equality of opportunity.
Both the moral and the practical ball is firmly in our court.
Well, duh - we wrecked all the the courts we didn't commandeer.

[Kaz_1983]

I have some trouble following your sentence structure, but I'll take a stab at the logic. (Could be wrong.)

Yeah the sentence structure is a bit iffy to say the least.

But yeh your stab is correct

[Karpel Tunnel]

What would he consider carnivore animals? murderers? Will we be putting lions and spiders on trial?

[Kaz_1983]

What would he consider carnivore animals? murderers? Will we be putting lions and spiders on trial?

Humans don't eat meat for survival reason, like loins and spiders.. male hippopotamus' rape female hippopotamus' .... dogs sniff each other's bums when they meet for example, I could go on.. but what I'm saying we don't NEED to be eating and anyways if we truely NEED to eat meat, it's okay.. you can still be vegan and eat meat or consume dairy... nahhhhh we have supermarkets, we have options

[Karpel Tunnel]

What would he consider carnivore animals? murderers? Will we be putting lions and spiders on trial?

Humans don't eat meat for survival reason, like loins and spiders.. male hippopotamus' rape female hippopotamus' .... dogs sniff each other's bums when they meet for example, I could go on.. but what I'm saying we don't NEED to be eating and anyways if we truely NEED to eat meat, it's okay.. you can still be vegan and eat meat or consume dairy... nahhhhh we have supermarkets, we have options

So if we had animals like omnivores who could manage without meat, but it is part of their diets, should they be tried for murder? Your male hippo example is a good one for my side of the argument. They don't need to rape them to survive. In fact with elephants, the problems humans have given their societies have led to violent young bull elephants. Should these be put on trial?
Once you say we are animals - which I do agree with - and use this as an argument making treatment of animals the same as interracial treatment, then you open up animals for moral judgment as equals also.
i

[Kaz_1983]

So if we had animals like omnivores who could manage without meat, but it is part of their diets, should they be tried for murder? Your male hippo example is a good one for my side of the argument. They don't need to rape them to survive. In fact with elephants, the problems humans have given their societies have led to violent young bull elephants. Should these be put on trial?
Once you say we are animals - which I do agree with - and use this as an argument making treatment of animals the same as interracial treatment, then you open up animals for moral judgment as equals also.

I get what you're saying but the big difference between hippopotamus' and human's is that we have food choices.. our behaviour does not have to be dictated by the behaviour of wild animals, afterallI never said that they were just as intelligent as we are. Look I'm not religious, so I believe in evolution and that we are animals, obviously highly intelligent animals but animals none the less..... as I said, if you have no choice but to kill and eat an animal for survival reasons -- there is no problem, eat there meat but if un -like wild animals you have a choice in what you eat/purchase.. choose the beans over the meat, not like you are forced to eat meat for your survival is it?

[Karpel Tunnel]

I get what you're saying but the big difference between hippopotamus' and human's is that we have food choices.. our behaviour does not have to be dictated by the behaviour of wild animals, afterallI never said that they were just as intelligent as we are. Look I'm not religious, so I believe in evolution and that we are animals, obviously highly intelligent animals but animals none the less..... as I said, if you have no choice but to kill and eat an animal for survival reasons -- there is no problem, eat there meat but if un -like wild animals you have a choice in what you eat/purchase.. choose the beans over the meat, not like you are forced to eat meat for your survival is it?

But I specifically pointed out that animals can be opportunistic. Some animals get by fine with non-meat sources, but will kill another animal in certain situations. I am reacting to the equivalence to racism, or in the context of him comparing this to racism. In racism I am dealing with entities I can hold to the same standards, morally and practically.

[Alias]

Are the instinctual habits of carnivorous animals truly relevant to human ethics?

Suppose we refrain from judgment of lions and spiders and bears and rats, and just concentrate on putting our own moral house in order?
To do that, we would have to examine our understanding of biology, our concepts of right and wrong behaviour and our dietary options.
It seems to me that vegans have got their pegs in a pretty straight line, while the advocates of the meat industry tend to run zig-zag patterns to throw their opponents off balance.

[Kaz_1983]

But I specifically pointed out that animals can be opportunistic. Some animals get by fine with non-meat sources, but will kill another animal in certain situations. I am reacting to the equivalence to racism, or in the context of him comparing this to racism. In racism I am dealing with entities I can hold to the same standards, morally and practically.

Animals aren't equals to us humans and never will be, I get that the comparison between eating animals and racism isn't the best comparison. All I was trying to say is, what's same as normal behaviour and legal CAN be deemed as bad behaviour and illegal in the future. That's all I meant... we don't have any justification for eating them, apart from "it tastes good"

[h_k_s]

What would he consider carnivore animals? murderers? Will we be putting lions and spiders on trial?

Humans don't eat meat for survival reason, like loins and spiders.. male hippopotamus' rape female hippopotamus' .... dogs sniff each other's bums when they meet for example, I could go on.. but what I'm saying we don't NEED to be eating and anyways if we truely NEED to eat meat, it's okay.. you can still be vegan and eat meat or consume dairy... nahhhhh we have supermarkets, we have options

Ultimately however, certain industries will give rise to excess meat.

The dairy industry gives rise to excess beef, veal, and goats meat.

The leather industry gives rise to excess veal, beef, and pork as well.

The wool industry gives rise to excess mutton.

What are you going to do with these excess byproducts? Just waste them? Waste is the ultimate immorality.

Ergo there will always be some meat available to buy and consume, due simply to other industries.

You cannot completely "choose" your way out of meat consumption.

This entire meat consumption issue will eventually solve itself as the world's population reaches and exceeds 10 billion however. At that time the available beef, pork, lamb, mutton, and turkey will all become too expensive for the majority. In that case only farmed trout and chicken will be affordable enough for most everyone. But even then there will be byproducts as meats available to some.

[Alias]

Ultimately however, certain industries will give rise to excess meat.

In the world today, there is no excess meat, except what rich people waste.

The dairy industry gives rise to excess beef, veal, and goats meat.

Why? With genetic manipulation, there is no need for dairy cows and goats to give birth to bull-calves, or billy-goats.
There never was excess beef: food grade beef comes from young steers - bull calves that were castrated at three months and raised on feed-lots. They're not even the same breeds as dairy cattle.
Superannuated milk cows are not eaten by humans but sold for dog-food, gelatin and glue.

The leather industry gives rise to excess veal, beef, and pork as well.

Cowhide and pigskin are byproducts of the meat industry, not the other way around. More valuable furs and leathers come from animals - mostly carnivores - that are not consumed by humans.

The wool industry gives rise to excess mutton.

No, it doesn't: sheep keep growing new wool every year. Old mutton is not eaten by humans; young lambs are.
You know those industries are unnecessary, right?
And that vegans avoid their products?

You cannot completely "choose" your way out of meat consumption.

Yes, you can. You won't die without yogurt, leather and wool.

[h_k_s]

Ultimately however, certain industries will give rise to excess meat.

In the world today, there is no excess meat, except what rich people waste.

The dairy industry gives rise to excess beef, veal, and goats meat.

Why? With genetic manipulation, there is no need for dairy cows and goats to give birth to bull-calves, or billy-goats.
There never was excess beef: food grade beef comes from young steers - bull calves that were castrated at three months and raised on feed-lots. They're not even the same breeds as dairy cattle.
Superannuated milk cows are not eaten by humans but sold for dog-food, gelatin and glue.

The leather industry gives rise to excess veal, beef, and pork as well.

Cowhide and pigskin are byproducts of the meat industry, not the other way around. More valuable furs and leathers come from animals - mostly carnivores - that are not consumed by humans.

The wool industry gives rise to excess mutton.

No, it doesn't: sheep keep growing new wool every year. Old mutton is not eaten by humans; young lambs are.
You know those industries are unnecessary, right?
And that vegans avoid their products?

You cannot completely "choose" your way out of meat consumption.

Yes, you can. You won't die without yogurt, leather and wool.

Once the world reaches 10 billion population then mutton chops will likely become more popular, with beef and pork becoming extremely expensive.

Leather itself is in extremely high demand for shoes, boots, hats, belts, and purses. These items will always be in fairly high demand, especially shoes and boots.

Whether artificial plant-based meat substitutes will ever become widespread and popular I do not know. I suppose it all depends on whether the next generation of children are raised on it or not.

For now, hunting is ok in certain states like Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Washington State, Oklahoma, Virginia, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine. But as human crowding gets worse, hunting will become rare and expensive just like in Europe today. So ultimately my favorite game meats will become out of the question.

I am glad I do not live in the future. It will be a very crowded and different kind of place.

[Alias]

Leather itself is in extremely high demand for shoes, boots, hats, belts, and purses. These items will always be in fairly high demand, especially shoes and boots.

Demand has never made anything ethical.
Whichever bad action 'gives rise' whichever other bad action, both remain bad.
There is no ethical by-product of an unethical industry.
And you can pollution, deforestation, energy consumption and CO2 to the unethical byproducts.
And maybe chemical and psychological damage to the workers in those industries.

Whether artificial plant-based meat substitutes will ever become widespread and popular I do not know.

They're already widespread. Successful enough for the beef industry to start suing over the names.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/bu ... 371378002/
And lab-grown real meat is becoming easier to produce, and more factories, world-wide are producing it.
https://www.dw.com/en/will-2019-be-the- ... a-46943665
Pretty soon, it will cheaper than raising and killing animals, as well as safer and healthier.

For now, hunting is ok in certain states like Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Washington State, Oklahoma, Virginia, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine. But as human crowding gets worse, hunting will become rare and expensive just like in Europe today. So ultimately my favorite game meats will become out of the question.

Legal is, again, not synonymous with ethical.

I am glad I do not live in the future. It will be a very crowded and different kind of place.

The near future is likely to be very grim in all sorts of ways.
The distant future might be better.