Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

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h_k_s
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by h_k_s »

Kaz_1983 wrote: July 16th, 2019, 9:13 pm
Newme wrote: July 16th, 2019, 6:18 pm
With batman, it is not either-or nor is it immediate and known. Joker could become good, and killing should only be done in direct defense (of self or others).
I meant stopping something from very bad happening, like Batman knew the Joker was going to kill 3 people if Batman didn't stop him/kill him right now.. I didn't explain that properly.
If you KNOW that someone is going to kill someone else, you GO TO THE POLICE.
Kaz_1983
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by Kaz_1983 »

h_k_s wrote: July 17th, 2019, 8:16 pm If you KNOW that someone is going to kill someone else, you GO TO THE POLICE.
Yes you would but what happens if there are no police to ring.. instead you have a gun in your hand and the Joker is walking over to get his knives... you got 5 seconds.....5, 4, 3, 2, 1 slitting throat time
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LuckyR
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by LuckyR »

Kaz_1983 wrote: July 19th, 2019, 7:58 am
h_k_s wrote: July 17th, 2019, 8:16 pm If you KNOW that someone is going to kill someone else, you GO TO THE POLICE.
Yes you would but what happens if there are no police to ring.. instead you have a gun in your hand and the Joker is walking over to get his knives... you got 5 seconds.....5, 4, 3, 2, 1 slitting throat time
OK, so the Joker is dead in a pool of blood. You're standing there with a smoking gun. The cops arrive. They question you. What are you sayin'?
"As usual... it depends."
Kaz_1983
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by Kaz_1983 »

LuckyR wrote: July 19th, 2019, 2:53 pm OK, so the Joker is dead in a pool of blood. You're standing there with a smoking gun. The cops arrive. They question you. What are you sayin'?
Do you have the time by any chance?
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LuckyR
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by LuckyR »

Kaz_1983 wrote: July 19th, 2019, 5:26 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 19th, 2019, 2:53 pm OK, so the Joker is dead in a pool of blood. You're standing there with a smoking gun. The cops arrive. They question you. What are you sayin'?
Do you have the time by any chance?
20 years to life. Hope it was worth it...
"As usual... it depends."
Kaz_1983
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by Kaz_1983 »

LuckyR wrote: July 20th, 2019, 1:43 am 20 years to life. Hope it was worth it...
:mrgreen:
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h_k_s
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by h_k_s »

Kaz_1983 wrote: July 19th, 2019, 7:58 am
h_k_s wrote: July 17th, 2019, 8:16 pm If you KNOW that someone is going to kill someone else, you GO TO THE POLICE.
Yes you would but what happens if there are no police to ring.. instead you have a gun in your hand and the Joker is walking over to get his knives... you got 5 seconds.....5, 4, 3, 2, 1 slitting throat time
Most States' laws permit you to shoot someone who is in the act of committing a murder.

But he/she/they must be in the act.

No paradoxes or dilemmas there.
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h_k_s
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by h_k_s »

LuckyR wrote: July 19th, 2019, 2:53 pm
Kaz_1983 wrote: July 19th, 2019, 7:58 am

Yes you would but what happens if there are no police to ring.. instead you have a gun in your hand and the Joker is walking over to get his knives... you got 5 seconds.....5, 4, 3, 2, 1 slitting throat time
OK, so the Joker is dead in a pool of blood. You're standing there with a smoking gun. The cops arrive. They question you. What are you sayin'?
The best thing is to say nothing until a lawyer who is representing you arrives.

Then make all your statements through the lawyer.

Ask for written questions.

Answer in writing as appropriate or plead the 5th as necessary.
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h_k_s
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by h_k_s »

The classic conundrum that I have always heard about the train switching engineer is that he is holding the lever to divert a train when his little child wanders onto the tracks. If he lets go of the lever everyone on the train dies. If he holds onto the lever his child gets run over by the train.

In this case, if it is your duty to hold onto the lever, then you must ethically and morally hold onto the lever and thus sacrifice your child for the people on the train.

But if you are simply a bystander who is holding the lever, not a railroad engineer, then your duty to your child is higher, and you should let go of the lever and save your child.

Paradox and dilemma.
Kaz_1983
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by Kaz_1983 »

That's a good one.
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Newme
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by Newme »

The scenario with your own child adds to the deontological notion of morality. You are your child’s only mother or father. Nobody else in this world would love them the same & you owe your child to do all you can to protect and care for them.

Many stop there, but if you realize that each person in this world is also a precious child, parent etc., then you see that maybe you also have an obligation toward them. Then the utilitarian sense of morality - which seems less emotional - more logical (based on numbers - helping the most) may apply.

A real life example that may relate. A woman’s son was displaying concerning behavior (talk of suicide etc), so from a young age, he was as he says “a guinea pig” to experiment on to figure out the effects of many different types of medication. Unfortunately, many of the meds had horrible side effects - and seemed to make him think, feel and act very dysfunctionally. He got caught sexually molesting other kids on the school bus & was brought before CPS counselors. His mom didn’t seem to care about the children he molested but was enraged that adults would question her son as they did. She was still protective and enabling of her son & years later he did worse and hurt his sister/her daughter.
“Empty is the argument of the philosopher which does not relieve any human suffering.” - Epicurus
Kaz_1983
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by Kaz_1983 »

h_k_s wrote: July 21st, 2019, 9:11 am The classic conundrum that I have always heard about the train switching engineer is that he is holding the lever to divert a train when his little child wanders onto the tracks. If he lets go of the lever everyone on the train dies. If he holds onto the lever his child gets run over by the train.
Yeah when it comes to utilitarianism holding on to the lever is immoral, right? Because the action of holding onto the lever doesn't maximizes the happiness, for the majority.... i.e. the people on the train..

Yes it's a dilemma.

What about this, is it moral for a 18 year old girl to be forced into prositution if it maximizes the happiness, for the greatest number of people... i.e. 100+ men.. I mean it maximizes the happiness of the majority.. if your a utilitarian, is forcing a 18 year old girl into prositution moral?
Kaz_1983
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Hereandnow wrote: July 14th, 2019, 10:48 am Interesting thing about Kant is that his categorical imperative is reducible to consequentialism, or nearly so. If I am in some moral dilemma, say, the familiar one about having to return someone's ax when there is clear drunken murderous intent, Kant asks us to, if you will, pull out the rational calculator: I should only return the ax if I can will it to be a universal law that all do this in a situation like this one. But how does one evaluate the situation? One has to describe it, analyze it's details, and this makes my maxim quite complicated, for it is not about returning axes at bad times, it is about this time and all of the circumstantial details that apply must be figured in. Perhaps returning the ax will end in the death of a serial killer who would otherwise go free. Then you maxim becomes should a person return an ax to the rightful owner who has at time Y murderous intent that would spare many of a horrible death? The rightness of universalizing the maxim now turns where? To utility. If you think this a wrong interpretation of Kant's moral theory, let me know....

Your thoughts?
I'm beginning to think with utilitarianism it's very hard to stay consistent. See I talk about what is moral systems, so with look into Kant's categorical imperative... it sounds interesting.
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Pantagruel
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by Pantagruel »

Kaz_1983 wrote: July 24th, 2019, 11:24 pm
h_k_s wrote: July 21st, 2019, 9:11 am The classic conundrum that I have always heard about the train switching engineer is that he is holding the lever to divert a train when his little child wanders onto the tracks. If he lets go of the lever everyone on the train dies. If he holds onto the lever his child gets run over by the train.
Yeah when it comes to utilitarianism holding on to the lever is immoral, right? Because the action of holding onto the lever doesn't maximizes the happiness, for the majority.... i.e. the people on the train..

Yes it's a dilemma.

What about this, is it moral for a 18 year old girl to be forced into prositution if it maximizes the happiness, for the greatest number of people... i.e. 100+ men.. I mean it maximizes the happiness of the majority.. if your a utilitarian, is forcing a 18 year old girl into prositution moral?
Actually John Stuart Mill was a very important proponent of Utilitarianism but his variety includes critical concepts of "duty" and "obligations of perfect" justice which would tend to balance cases such as these...
aveenire
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Re: Utilitarianism vs Deontological Morality

Post by aveenire »

LuckyR wrote: July 19th, 2019, 2:53 pm
Kaz_1983 wrote: July 19th, 2019, 7:58 am

Yes you would but what happens if there are no police to ring.. instead you have a gun in your hand and the Joker is walking over to get his knives... you got 5 seconds.....5, 4, 3, 2, 1 slitting throat time
OK, so the Joker is dead in a pool of blood. You're standing there with a smoking gun. The cops arrive. They question you. What are you sayin'?
yes yes i also agree with you. :shock:
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