Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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Jklint wrote: August 21st, 2019, 4:06 pm It should be mandatory that any request to be euthanized - especially by those in a certain age - be performed by the medical profession without their dubious morality coming into play. Considered as a Last Expense, it's a service paid for by the person who requests it and like any other prepaid service there exists the obligation for its fulfillment.
I agree completely. You can't save everyone https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/ so it makes sense to focus our efforts on those who want to be saved and who have future prospects. Perhaps a cooling off period with counselling of two years or so to make sure.

However, for any case of persistent mood disorders, it would be irresponsible to act without doing a brain dynamics scan.

In fact, it's arguably irresponsible for professionals to make assumptions in treating such people without checking their brain structure and dynamics. Imagine being treated for broken bones without the professional bothering to do a scan.
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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I think euthanasia will become more common in the future due to increasing deprivation, desperation and disease. There will be fewer restrictions limiting access and possibly even euthanasia clinics where the process can be completed without much ado. For generations there was anathema against gays which has evolved into near complete normality and acceptance. A comparable cycle, I think, will cause euthanasia to receive the same acknowledgement perhaps even to the point of being able to purchase Euthanasia self-help kits online. It would appear more comical than tragic if you wait to buy one until they're on-sale on a Black Friday event.
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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Could be. I expect it will rise along with infant mortality and rates of death based on finance, where the cure clearly is out there but can't be paid for.

Still, given the bizarreness of the current anti-abortion drive, it may take some time.
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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perhaps even to the point of being able to purchase Euthanasia self-help kits online
That already exists, a.k.a. fentanyl.
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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Greta wrote: August 25th, 2019, 4:08 pm Could be. I expect it will rise along with infant mortality and rates of death based on finance, where the cure clearly is out there but can't be paid for.

Still, given the bizarreness of the current anti-abortion drive, it may take some time.
What, in your opinion is the difference between suicide and self help euthanasia?
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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LuckyR wrote: August 26th, 2019, 2:28 am
Greta wrote: August 25th, 2019, 4:08 pm Could be. I expect it will rise along with infant mortality and rates of death based on finance, where the cure clearly is out there but can't be paid for.

Still, given the bizarreness of the current anti-abortion drive, it may take some time.
What, in your opinion is the difference between suicide and self help euthanasia?
Language, semantics and circumstance. Euthanasia is mercy killing for those backed into a corner and where the future can only hold ever more horror. Not sadness through being crap at socialising but actual horror, such as struggling to breathe, constant fierce discomfort, going down the gurgler and watching everything you worked towards for your children's future is being frittered away on treatment that only prolongs discomfort, etc.
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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chewybrian wrote: August 21st, 2019, 12:58 pmI can agree with the availability of the choice to competent folks suffering from serious physical problems, but I am struggling to see the acceptable scenario for suicide based on mental problems.
As it seems, the legal ground for euthanasia is the hopeless nature of physical or mental problems, not a mere wish to end life. It would therefor be possible to change the scope of a discussion on the topic towards the hopeless nature of mental problems.

Can a mental problem be hopeless in nature?

The origin of life and the state of the human mind are yet unknown. Therefor, it may not be possible to determine if a mental problem is hopeless in nature.

Philosophy, as an example, is capable of changing people's state of mind and perception on reality. An example is stoicism. People who practice that philosophy may withstand a flu while others may take it to bed and be sick for weeks.

How Stoicism helped me fight the flu by Monil Shah
stevenaitchison - co-uk/stoicism-helped-fight-flu/
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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A recent study by US professor and depression authority Jerome C. Wakefield argues that depression is essential for human evolution and that it is conceptually wrong to make people believe that depression is a disease. There have been several studies that proved that depression can have a protective function. British psychiatrist Paul Keedwell argues that a severe depression can save people from the damaging effects of stress on the long term.

Many top performing people such as Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, Isaac Newton and Beethoven have experienced severe depression. A depression may connect them to the other end: the ultimate level of performance. The further they reach, the deeper they may fall. When they don't understand the concept, they may simply become a victim of depression. Artists are likely to give in to the emotions in their pursuit of a authentic experience. If this would be correct, it could hold a key for exceptional human performance.

Logically, without the potential for depression there is no potential for euphoria. I've come up with the following to understand it:

"If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist."
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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In The Netherlands, many people commit suicide by jumping in front of a train. If those people simply wanted to end life, why wouldn't they do so out of sight and without hurting others?

It may be an indication that their wish to commit suicide could be a expression of the will to live.

If that would be the case, the same could be applicable with the choice for euthanasia. It could be a masked expression of the will to live.

A choice for euthanasia could be related to a lack of ability to answer questions such as "Why does life has meaning?". People have big problems with such questions which has lead to religions.

Is psychiatry a good alternative for what was previously offered by religions? Can it offer solutions? If not, is it in a position to judge whether people's mental problems are hopeless in nature?
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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arjand wrote: August 31st, 2019, 9:17 pm A recent study by US professor and depression authority Jerome C. Wakefield argues that depression is essential for human evolution and that it is conceptually wrong to make people believe that depression is a disease. There have been several studies that proved that depression can have a protective function. British psychiatrist Paul Keedwell argues that a severe depression can save people from the damaging effects of stress on the long term.

Many top performing people such as Winston Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, Isaac Newton and Beethoven have experienced severe depression. A depression may connect them to the other end: the ultimate level of performance. The further they reach, the deeper they may fall. When they don't understand the concept, they may simply become a victim of depression. Artists are likely to give in to the emotions in their pursuit of a authentic experience. If this would be correct, it could hold a key for exceptional human performance.

Logically, without the potential for depression there is no potential for euphoria. I've come up with the following to understand it:

"If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist."
There is a huge difference between feeling sad and clinical depression. It is easy when reading about depression to muse: "I've felt like that". However if you hang out with clinically depressed folks, you'll think: whoa, that dude is messed up...
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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LuckyR wrote: September 3rd, 2019, 1:47 amThere is a huge difference between feeling sad and clinical depression. It is easy when reading about depression to muse: "I've felt like that". However if you hang out with clinically depressed folks, you'll think: whoa, that dude is messed up...
It may be best to not rely on a personal perception to determine what a severe depression is. It could mean something different on a individual level. However, scientific evidence does show that people in general can recover from clinical depression (severe depression) using a active placebo, a pill with a side effect that makes people believe that something is happening in their body. That proves that purely on the basis of a mental state people can feel differently, even in the case of clinical depression.

Effectiveness of antidepressants: an evidence myth constructed from a thousand randomized trials?
philpapers -dot- org/rec/JOHEOA-2

In that light, alternative visions on depression from experts such as professor Jerome Wakefield and others are interesting. What if they are correct? It may indicate that the human mind has powers and capacities that are yet unknown and that may be vital for successful evolution.
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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Friedrich Nietzsche in The Genealogy of Morals (Third Essay) argues that in response to a lack of ability to answer questions related to the purpose of life, people will rather choose to commit suicide than to choose nothing at all.
If you except the ascetic ideal, man, the animal man had no meaning. His existence on earth contained no end; "What is the purpose of man at all?" was a question without an answer; the will for man and the world was lacking; behind every great human destiny rang as a refrain a still greater "Vanity!" The ascetic ideal simply means this: that something was lacking, that a tremendous void encircled man—he did not know how to justify himself, to explain himself, to affirm himself, he suffered from the problem of his own meaning. He suffered also in other ways, he was in the main a diseased animal; but his problem was not suffering itself, but the lack of an answer to that crying question, "To what purpose do we suffer?" Man, the bravest animal and the one most inured to suffering, does not repudiate suffering in itself: he wills it, he even seeks it out, provided that he is shown a meaning for it, a purpose of suffering. Not suffering, but the senselessness of suffering was the curse which till then lay spread over humanity—and the ascetic ideal gave it a meaning! It was up till then the only meaning; but any meaning is better than no meaning; the ascetic ideal was in that connection the "faute de mieux" par excellence that existed at that time. In that ideal suffering found an explanation; the tremendous gap seemed filled; the door to all suicidal Nihilism was closed. The explanation—there is no doubt about it—brought in its train new suffering, deeper, more penetrating, more venomous, gnawing more brutally into life: it brought all suffering under the perspective of guilt; but in spite of all that—man was saved thereby, he had a meaning, and from henceforth was no more like a leaf in the wind, a shuttle-cock of chance, of nonsense, he could now "will" something—absolutely immaterial to what end, to what purpose, with what means he wished: the will itself was saved. It is absolutely impossible to disguise what in point of fact is made clear by complete will that has taken its direction from the ascetic ideal: this hate of the human, and even more of the animal, and more still of the material, this horror of the senses, of reason itself, this fear of happiness and beauty, this desire to get right away from all illusion, change, growth, death, wishing and even desiring—all this means—let us have the courage to grasp it—a will for Nothingness, a will opposed to life, a repudiation of the most fundamental conditions of life, but it is and remains a will!—and to say at the end that which I said at the beginning—man will wish Nothingness rather than not wish at all.
Philosophy could be of crucial importance to decide whether it is possible for mental problems to be hopeless in nature. Social evolutionary factors such as the fall of religions should be considered. Without religions, where will insecure people go for guidance? And is it ethical that a doctor presents them with an option to end life?
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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The euthanasia numbers in The Netherlands have been growing rapidly in 2019 (15% growth).

What could fuel it? Maybe it is the simple fact that the door is put open by trusted doctors. People will follow. It is a culture that is being created.

Prominent doctors speak of a worrying and absurd culture shift and some have resigned from official committees to express their protest.

When it comes to euthanasia in psychiatry, some people may be at risk. The situation is different in psychiatry.

The category of psychiatric patients called "given up" consists of thousands of patients in The Netherlands. Those people do not want to live anymore but their problems are mental. The people in that category could include an abused woman that would have been labeled with Hysteria, who, after years of psychiatric treatment (read: fixation, forced electroshock, years of isolation cell and medications) has been turned into a zombie and does not see any light in her life anymore.

What would happen in her scenario is that the doctor who destroyed her life would also end her life by proposing euthanasia as a way out from her psychiatric night mare.

The second problem is that incapacitated people can be euthanized as well. Imagine a young woman, tortured with forced electroshock and isolation cell, that does not want to speak anymore and lays on her bed for years. The psychiatrist proposes euthanasia and her family signs the papers.

The woman in the example may simply not want to speak anymore to the people who damaged her. In reality, if she would have met a doctor like Dr. Detlef Petry she may have been able to recover.

In other cases, the woman in the example may sign the papers herself, but it would not be the real her that would sign. It would be a person affected by psychiatry.

You cannot argue the same for other medical specialisms.

Maybe what's truly at stake in the situation is culture. What is behind the culture shift? Why are doctors interested to end the life of patients purely on the basis of their mental wish? What idea do they intend to 'promote' in people or don't they think about the greater effects of their actions?

I don't think that it is fair to blame it on the affected people. Culture is created.
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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People want to die gently, if possible.

Families don't want to blow all of their savings on keeping relatives alive in pain against their will.

Yet people keep on dying horribly without need and family finances continue to be strained by what is effectively the cost of torture. The art of ancient torturers was the ability to keep their victims alive and conscious. Today, treatment provided in kindness becomes an unwitting instrument of torture.

Many hope that legal systems around the world adjust to this reality.
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Re: Euthanasia in psychiatry: ethically?

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If it were to be that simple that is.

People have grave difficulties with questions related to the purpose of life and according to philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche, people will rather choose to commit suicide then to choose nothing at all. It implies that something more may be at play than a mere simple wish to end life.

There is a culture being created. At question is whether that would be a good culture.

The free choice that is mentioned to be a good for humanity, isn't as free as it could look like based on the simple descriptive words for the concept. There have been cults in which people collectively committed suicide. People are easy to manipulate and where priests and religions held considerable power in the past, doctors of today may hold a much greater power.

If doctors promote to the world that it is OK to end life for a mere wish to die, that creates culture. People follow doctors and when life becomes hard, they will consider that it is logical to choose to end life. To give up the fight.

I don't think that it is good for human evolution to promote such a concept. Overcoming problems is essential for progress in life. The fight to overcome problems should be made rewarding by culture. People should be driven to move mountains, figuratively speaking, to learn to find solutions even if it seems impossible. It could be of essential value to human survival.

In the case of antidepressants, an 'active placebo' (a pill with a effect that can be felt in the body) is almost 100% as effective as antidepressants. The depression appears to be the horror of horrors that drives people to end life. However, a simple belief in a pill can make people feel differently. There is a potential to overcome problems and it may be essential for human evolution to drive people (by culture) to discover and make use of that potential.

With regard to the culture to make it easy to end life based on a mere wish. It would not be ethical for the doctors to hide behind the 'free choice' of patients. The doctors essentially lead people to make their choice. They do not stand separated from that choice. There is a responsibility with regard to the culture that is created.

Of course I understand the desire for free choice and I personally respect it. It is merely that people are unknowingly influenced by culture to make certain choices and I intend to question whether that would be a good influence.
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