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Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

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SalamiDog
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Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by SalamiDog » October 3rd, 2019, 3:46 am

Basically, I have the option of not serving in the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), so I’m wondering what would be the morally right thing to do. I came to the conclusion that if I don’t serve I’m potentially preventing unjustified harm towards Palestinians that would have been caused by me serving in the military (and even if I don't serve in a combat role I could still indirectly cause harm). I can make that conclusion from observing the statistics of Israel soldiers/Palestinian deaths and the many reports of unjustified bombings and unjustified treatment towards Palestinians).

Since I wasn’t able to find any reasonably probable negative outcomes of not serving in the military, I concluded that me not serving in the military would be a morally neutral – to morally right action because the probable outcomes of my action will range from me not preventing any unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally neutral because I haven’t done anything wrong by not serving either) to me preventing some unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally right).

Does this conclusion seem logically sound? Are there any counter arguments to my moral analysis that someone might present? I’m very concerned with the validity of my conclusion because I know for a fact that if I don’t serve in the military a large portion of my society (including my family and friends around me) will criticize me for it so I want to be certain that I’m making the right moral decision so that I won’t “break down” from the hate and criticism of the people around me.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by LuckyR » October 3rd, 2019, 5:17 am

SalamiDog wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:46 am
Basically, I have the option of not serving in the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), so I’m wondering what would be the morally right thing to do. I came to the conclusion that if I don’t serve I’m potentially preventing unjustified harm towards Palestinians that would have been caused by me serving in the military (and even if I don't serve in a combat role I could still indirectly cause harm). I can make that conclusion from observing the statistics of Israel soldiers/Palestinian deaths and the many reports of unjustified bombings and unjustified treatment towards Palestinians).

Since I wasn’t able to find any reasonably probable negative outcomes of not serving in the military, I concluded that me not serving in the military would be a morally neutral – to morally right action because the probable outcomes of my action will range from me not preventing any unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally neutral because I haven’t done anything wrong by not serving either) to me preventing some unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally right).

Does this conclusion seem logically sound? Are there any counter arguments to my moral analysis that someone might present? I’m very concerned with the validity of my conclusion because I know for a fact that if I don’t serve in the military a large portion of my society (including my family and friends around me) will criticize me for it so I want to be certain that I’m making the right moral decision so that I won’t “break down” from the hate and criticism of the people around me.
The answer to your question lies in whether or not you can accomplish your goals within the IDF or does meeting your goals require you to remain outside of the organization.

Regardless, I would encourage you to live your life by whatever code you subscribe to, since ultimately you will answer to your future self for the rest of eternity for the decisions you make today.

Good luck to you.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by Sculptor1 » October 3rd, 2019, 5:38 am

It is immoral to serve in ANY military.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by SalamiDog » October 3rd, 2019, 8:11 am

SalamiDog wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:46 am
Basically, I have the option of not serving in the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), so I’m wondering what would be the morally right thing to do. I came to the conclusion that if I don’t serve I’m potentially preventing unjustified harm towards Palestinians that would have been caused by me serving in the military (and even if I don't serve in a combat role I could still indirectly cause harm). I can make that conclusion from observing the statistics of Israel soldiers/Palestinian deaths and the many reports of unjustified bombings and unjustified treatment towards Palestinians).

Since I wasn’t able to find any reasonably probable negative outcomes of not serving in the military, I concluded that me not serving in the military would be a morally neutral – to morally right action because the probable outcomes of my action will range from me not preventing any unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally neutral because I haven’t done anything wrong by not serving either) to me preventing some unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally right).

Does this conclusion seem logically sound? Are there any counter arguments to my moral analysis that someone might present? I’m very concerned with the validity of my conclusion because I know for a fact that if I don’t serve in the military a large portion of my society (including my family and friends around me) will criticize me for it so I want to be certain that I’m making the right moral decision so that I won’t “break down” from the hate and criticism of the people around me.
Edit: I've now found a possible negative consequence that adds to the complexity of my conflict. This probably sounds really cringe but I believe I might some day become a "public figure" and even if I won't I still live my life with that intention because all of my passions (Director, Author, Actor) have to do with me being an "influencer" which is why my decision might be a lot more impactful. One of the negative consequences that I've found is that maybe by not serving in the military I will drive other people to not serve as well and that would cause the IDF to weaken enough so that it loses its defensive abilities and a war ensues where more casualties would be lost than if I would've served instead. This is probably not the likliest outcome but does it matter? because if an outcome is bad enough even if the chance of it happening is 0.1% you would rather make an effort to prevent it right? For instance if we knew there is a probability of 1/1000 that an asteroid will come to earth and destroy 60% of the population, we would do anything possible to prepare for it and prevent it even if it's very unlikely to happen.

Am I making any sense? I feel like I'm soo lost :?

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by Mark1955 » October 3rd, 2019, 12:56 pm

I'd say the serious question you have to ask yourself is what would you do in the military if you were put in a situation and given an order to act, as you saw it immorally. Do you think you would carry out the order or do you think you would be prepared to stand up and say no, because this will be a lot harder than saying no to service and facing the ire of your family.

On the reverse of the coin, every one of you who does not serve for this reason makes it easier for the IDF to remain an organisation in which fails to meet your expectations of it's behaviour as it is populated by those who don't share your morale concerns.

Finally I'd suggest you need to make up your mind not have it decided for you. It will be you potentially getting shot at and possibly killed/wounded and it will be you shooting back and most importantly it will be you living with what you did for the rest of your life. It is very easy for the likes of Sculptor to generate simplistic solutions when they aren't going to be involved.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by LuckyR » October 3rd, 2019, 6:01 pm

SalamiDog wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:11 am
SalamiDog wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:46 am
Basically, I have the option of not serving in the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), so I’m wondering what would be the morally right thing to do. I came to the conclusion that if I don’t serve I’m potentially preventing unjustified harm towards Palestinians that would have been caused by me serving in the military (and even if I don't serve in a combat role I could still indirectly cause harm). I can make that conclusion from observing the statistics of Israel soldiers/Palestinian deaths and the many reports of unjustified bombings and unjustified treatment towards Palestinians).

Since I wasn’t able to find any reasonably probable negative outcomes of not serving in the military, I concluded that me not serving in the military would be a morally neutral – to morally right action because the probable outcomes of my action will range from me not preventing any unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally neutral because I haven’t done anything wrong by not serving either) to me preventing some unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally right).

Does this conclusion seem logically sound? Are there any counter arguments to my moral analysis that someone might present? I’m very concerned with the validity of my conclusion because I know for a fact that if I don’t serve in the military a large portion of my society (including my family and friends around me) will criticize me for it so I want to be certain that I’m making the right moral decision so that I won’t “break down” from the hate and criticism of the people around me.
Edit: I've now found a possible negative consequence that adds to the complexity of my conflict. This probably sounds really cringe but I believe I might some day become a "public figure" and even if I won't I still live my life with that intention because all of my passions (Director, Author, Actor) have to do with me being an "influencer" which is why my decision might be a lot more impactful. One of the negative consequences that I've found is that maybe by not serving in the military I will drive other people to not serve as well and that would cause the IDF to weaken enough so that it loses its defensive abilities and a war ensues where more casualties would be lost than if I would've served instead. This is probably not the likliest outcome but does it matter? because if an outcome is bad enough even if the chance of it happening is 0.1% you would rather make an effort to prevent it right? For instance if we knew there is a probability of 1/1000 that an asteroid will come to earth and destroy 60% of the population, we would do anything possible to prepare for it and prevent it even if it's very unlikely to happen.

Am I making any sense? I feel like I'm soo lost :?
You are trying to equate two unequal things. Namely, your personal responsibility (in serving or not serving), with other people's responsibility (following your lead in not serving). The first is a possible logical decision maker for you, the other is not a logical decision maker.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by SalamiDog » October 4th, 2019, 5:11 am

LuckyR wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:01 pm
SalamiDog wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:11 am


Edit: I've now found a possible negative consequence that adds to the complexity of my conflict. This probably sounds really cringe but I believe I might some day become a "public figure" and even if I won't I still live my life with that intention because all of my passions (Director, Author, Actor) have to do with me being an "influencer" which is why my decision might be a lot more impactful. One of the negative consequences that I've found is that maybe by not serving in the military I will drive other people to not serve as well and that would cause the IDF to weaken enough so that it loses its defensive abilities and a war ensues where more casualties would be lost than if I would've served instead. This is probably not the likliest outcome but does it matter? because if an outcome is bad enough even if the chance of it happening is 0.1% you would rather make an effort to prevent it right? For instance if we knew there is a probability of 1/1000 that an asteroid will come to earth and destroy 60% of the population, we would do anything possible to prepare for it and prevent it even if it's very unlikely to happen.

Am I making any sense? I feel like I'm soo lost :?
You are trying to equate two unequal things. Namely, your personal responsibility (in serving or not serving), with other people's responsibility (following your lead in not serving). The first is a possible logical decision maker for you, the other is not a logical decision maker.
Mmm, I can see that being true depending on your moral theory. I view myself as some form of a rule-utilitarian, so if I'm aware that the consequences of other people following in my footsteps might lead to a very bad outcome I will consider it immoral to serve in that case. But my debate is more so a case of: "is it likely enough to happen and is the outcome of it happening bad enough that it's better to serve in order to avoid it."

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by LuckyR » October 4th, 2019, 3:11 pm

SalamiDog wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 5:11 am
LuckyR wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:01 pm


You are trying to equate two unequal things. Namely, your personal responsibility (in serving or not serving), with other people's responsibility (following your lead in not serving). The first is a possible logical decision maker for you, the other is not a logical decision maker.
Mmm, I can see that being true depending on your moral theory. I view myself as some form of a rule-utilitarian, so if I'm aware that the consequences of other people following in my footsteps might lead to a very bad outcome I will consider it immoral to serve in that case. But my debate is more so a case of: "is it likely enough to happen and is the outcome of it happening bad enough that it's better to serve in order to avoid it."
Completely separate from philosophy and morality, as a basic piece of life advice, you will not get very far if you base your personal decision making on things (like other people's choices) that you have no control over.

Just out of curiosity, have you had a significant event in your life where you felt responsible for other people's decision making?
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by h_k_s » October 5th, 2019, 4:36 pm

SalamiDog wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:46 am
Basically, I have the option of not serving in the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), so I’m wondering what would be the morally right thing to do. I came to the conclusion that if I don’t serve I’m potentially preventing unjustified harm towards Palestinians that would have been caused by me serving in the military (and even if I don't serve in a combat role I could still indirectly cause harm). I can make that conclusion from observing the statistics of Israel soldiers/Palestinian deaths and the many reports of unjustified bombings and unjustified treatment towards Palestinians).

Since I wasn’t able to find any reasonably probable negative outcomes of not serving in the military, I concluded that me not serving in the military would be a morally neutral – to morally right action because the probable outcomes of my action will range from me not preventing any unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally neutral because I haven’t done anything wrong by not serving either) to me preventing some unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally right).

Does this conclusion seem logically sound? Are there any counter arguments to my moral analysis that someone might present? I’m very concerned with the validity of my conclusion because I know for a fact that if I don’t serve in the military a large portion of my society (including my family and friends around me) will criticize me for it so I want to be certain that I’m making the right moral decision so that I won’t “break down” from the hate and criticism of the people around me.
I would not consider the IDF as immoral. They kill when they must kill. They avoid killing civilians as much as they can. They are the antithesis of their opponents and enemies.

If you cannot bear the thought of killing or being shot at, then just get an admin job such as cooking, supply, office work, maintenance, news reporting, etc.

As Moses (Moshe) said himself anciently as written in the Tenakh, not everyone is cut out for killing.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by Sculptor1 » October 5th, 2019, 7:16 pm

h_k_s wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:36 pm
SalamiDog wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 3:46 am
Basically, I have the option of not serving in the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), so I’m wondering what would be the morally right thing to do. I came to the conclusion that if I don’t serve I’m potentially preventing unjustified harm towards Palestinians that would have been caused by me serving in the military (and even if I don't serve in a combat role I could still indirectly cause harm). I can make that conclusion from observing the statistics of Israel soldiers/Palestinian deaths and the many reports of unjustified bombings and unjustified treatment towards Palestinians).

Since I wasn’t able to find any reasonably probable negative outcomes of not serving in the military, I concluded that me not serving in the military would be a morally neutral – to morally right action because the probable outcomes of my action will range from me not preventing any unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally neutral because I haven’t done anything wrong by not serving either) to me preventing some unjustified harm towards Palestinians (morally right).

Does this conclusion seem logically sound? Are there any counter arguments to my moral analysis that someone might present? I’m very concerned with the validity of my conclusion because I know for a fact that if I don’t serve in the military a large portion of my society (including my family and friends around me) will criticize me for it so I want to be certain that I’m making the right moral decision so that I won’t “break down” from the hate and criticism of the people around me.
I would not consider the IDF as immoral. They kill when they must kill.
Duh. The whole point about them is that is NOT what they do. They kill indiscriminately.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by h_k_s » October 5th, 2019, 7:41 pm

Sculptor1, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.
Display this post.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by h_k_s » October 5th, 2019, 7:42 pm

Once you get onto my list, it is very very hard to get off it.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by Pattern-chaser » October 6th, 2019, 9:27 am

Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?
For myself, I would say yes. But we can be a little more definite than that. It is illegal, under international law, to use the "I was just following orders" excuse. Individual soldiers are expected not to follow immoral orders. So an unjust military is subject to prosecution, because it's illegal too. I cannot disagree with the fundamental rightness of this.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by Pattern-chaser » October 6th, 2019, 9:33 am

h_k_s wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:36 pm
I would not consider the IDF as immoral. They kill when they must kill. They avoid killing civilians as much as they can.
"Remember Rachel Corrie" is a phrase that springs to mind, and gives the lie to your words, I think. 😥
Rachel Corrie Foundation wrote:Rachel Corrie was a 23-year-old American peace activist from Olympia, Washington, who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer on 16 March 2003, while undertaking nonviolent direct action to protect the home of a Palestinian family from demolition.
But it is not only the actions of one army that are under discussion here. All immoral and unjust acts carried out by soldiers, under orders or not, are what is being discussed here, and it is my position that all of them are wrong and unacceptable.

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Re: Is it immoral to serve in an unjust Military?

Post by h_k_s » October 7th, 2019, 5:34 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote:
October 6th, 2019, 9:33 am
h_k_s wrote:
October 5th, 2019, 4:36 pm
I would not consider the IDF as immoral. They kill when they must kill. They avoid killing civilians as much as they can.
"Remember Rachel Corrie" is a phrase that springs to mind, and gives the lie to your words, I think. 😥
Rachel Corrie Foundation wrote:Rachel Corrie was a 23-year-old American peace activist from Olympia, Washington, who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer on 16 March 2003, while undertaking nonviolent direct action to protect the home of a Palestinian family from demolition.
But it is not only the actions of one army that are under discussion here. All immoral and unjust acts carried out by soldiers, under orders or not, are what is being discussed here, and it is my position that all of them are wrong and unacceptable.
I don't consider isolated incidents as valid or indicative of an entire organization like the IDF.

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