Freedom of speech is objective morality

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Marvin_Edwards » May 16th, 2020, 6:11 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 6:07 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 5:13 pm


"Canine fact"? There are facts about canines, but there are no "canine facts". There are facts about our mental experiences which are not themselves mental experiences (other than storing them in our memory).

So, where is this merry chase leading us?
Do you not think that facts are states of affairs?
The state of affairs is objective reality. A fact is a true statement about objective reality.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Terrapin Station » May 17th, 2020, 8:46 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 6:11 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 6:07 pm


Do you not think that facts are states of affairs?
The state of affairs is objective reality. A fact is a true statement about objective reality.
So with the way you use the term "fact," If no people ever existed, there would be no facts. Is that right?

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Marvin_Edwards » May 17th, 2020, 9:23 am

Terrapin Station wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 8:46 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 16th, 2020, 6:11 pm


The state of affairs is objective reality. A fact is a true statement about objective reality.
So with the way you use the term "fact," If no people ever existed, there would be no facts. Is that right?
Personally, I think the tree falling in the forest, even when there's no one around, still makes a thud.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Terrapin Station » May 17th, 2020, 9:27 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 9:23 am
Terrapin Station wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 8:46 am


So with the way you use the term "fact," If no people ever existed, there would be no facts. Is that right?
Personally, I think the tree falling in the forest, even when there's no one around, still makes a thud.
Okay, so if there are facts even in the absence of people, then facts can't be true statements. There are no statements if there are no people.

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GregRogers
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by GregRogers » May 17th, 2020, 10:57 am

Mortimer Adler had an idea which I think is helpful. He said, to the effect, that freedom of speech should be encouraged wherever truth is undecided or if new fact avail themselves which call said truth into question. However, freedom of speech should not be encouraged in areas of settled truth.

In other words, the flat earth society does not need a seat at the table.

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GregRogers
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by GregRogers » May 17th, 2020, 12:38 pm

Terrapin,

So, if someone thinks that smoking 10 packs of cigarettes a day is good for them... I can't tell them they are wrong? If you are speaking about consent; if you looked the wrong way while crossing the street and were about to get run over by a bus, do I need your consent to pull you out of the way?

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Marvin_Edwards » May 17th, 2020, 3:27 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 9:27 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 9:23 am


Personally, I think the tree falling in the forest, even when there's no one around, still makes a thud.
Okay, so if there are facts even in the absence of people, then facts can't be true statements. There are no statements if there are no people.
Of course, silly. There is still objective reality, even if there are no people to make statements about it. Wouldn't you agree?

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Steve3007
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Steve3007 » May 17th, 2020, 3:32 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:A fact is a true statement about objective reality.
Terrapin Station wrote:Okay, so if there are facts even in the absence of people, then facts can't be true statements. There are no statements if there are no people.
Marvin_Edwards wrote:Of course, silly.
So are facts true statements or not? You've said both here.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Terrapin Station » May 17th, 2020, 3:37 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 3:27 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 9:27 am


Okay, so if there are facts even in the absence of people, then facts can't be true statements. There are no statements if there are no people.
Of course, silly. There is still objective reality, even if there are no people to make statements about it. Wouldn't you agree?
What Steve said above. You defined facts as true statements about reality. Facts can't be true statements about reality if there are facts when there are no people. Because there are no statements when there are no people. So what would your revised definition of "fact" be?

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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Marvin_Edwards » May 17th, 2020, 4:12 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 3:32 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:A fact is a true statement about objective reality.
Terrapin Station wrote:Okay, so if there are facts even in the absence of people, then facts can't be true statements. There are no statements if there are no people.
Marvin_Edwards wrote:Of course, silly.
So are facts true statements or not? You've said both here.
The opposite of a true statement (fact) is a false statement (not a fact). In the case of there being no statements at all, there are neither true nor false statements.

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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Marvin_Edwards » May 17th, 2020, 4:14 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 3:37 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 3:27 pm


Of course, silly. There is still objective reality, even if there are no people to make statements about it. Wouldn't you agree?
What Steve said above. You defined facts as true statements about reality. Facts can't be true statements about reality if there are facts when there are no people. Because there are no statements when there are no people. So what would your revised definition of "fact" be?
No. I would not revise my definition. A fact is a true statement about objective reality. In the absence of statements, there are no facts. Nevertheless, the tree falling in the woods will produce a thud.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Terrapin Station » May 17th, 2020, 4:24 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 4:14 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 3:37 pm


What Steve said above. You defined facts as true statements about reality. Facts can't be true statements about reality if there are facts when there are no people. Because there are no statements when there are no people. So what would your revised definition of "fact" be?
No. I would not revise my definition. A fact is a true statement about objective reality. In the absence of statements, there are no facts. Nevertheless, the tree falling in the woods will produce a thud.
Right. So if there were no people and a tree fell in a forest producing a thud, that would not be a fact. Is this correct re what you'd say?

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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Ecurb » May 17th, 2020, 5:20 pm

Here are some restrictions to Freedom of Speech that many people support:

Laws against perjury: Obviously, true freedom of speech would include the freedom to lie. But perjury is illegal -- and condemned by the Ten Commandments.

Copyrights and other forms of intellectual property: Absolute Freedom of Speech would, of course, include the freedom to plagiarize. Personally, I think intellectual property rights are important for the arts and sciences, but we should be careful that they are not overly restrictive. If a high school drama club wants to enact a play (for example) they must pay a fee to the holder of the copyright, even if the actual author has been dead for years. To me, it makes sense to demand fees from professional, money-making players, but not to amateurs who aren't profiting.

Laws against lying in general (including fraud, lying to the FBI, etc.): One of Trump's minions was convicted of lying to the FBI. Who knew that was against the law? Commercial speech is restricted by law (here in the U.S.). A company may not promote its products with "false or misleading" advertising, for example.

These are some of the issues that make Freedom of Speech a complicated issue.

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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Marvin_Edwards » May 17th, 2020, 7:47 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 4:24 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 4:14 pm


No. I would not revise my definition. A fact is a true statement about objective reality. In the absence of statements, there are no facts. Nevertheless, the tree falling in the woods will produce a thud.
Right. So if there were no people and a tree fell in a forest producing a thud, that would not be a fact. Is this correct re what you'd say?
But there is a person. Me. And I am making the statement of fact that the tree falling in the forest still makes a thud even though no one is there to hear it. Now, if you and I did not exist, then this conversation wouldn't be taking place. And that's a fact.

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Re: Freedom of speech is objective morality

Post by Terrapin Station » May 18th, 2020, 9:47 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 7:47 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
May 17th, 2020, 4:24 pm


Right. So if there were no people and a tree fell in a forest producing a thud, that would not be a fact. Is this correct re what you'd say?
But there is a person. Me. And I am making the statement of fact that the tree falling in the forest still makes a thud even though no one is there to hear it. Now, if you and I did not exist, then this conversation wouldn't be taking place. And that's a fact.
"If there were no people" -- aren't you capable of contemplating that hypothetical?

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