Would it be moraly right to tell young people the truth about life?

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evolution
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Re: Would it be moraly right to tell young people the truth about life?

Post by evolution »

Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am
Belindi wrote: June 21st, 2020, 3:37 am

The 3 year old might possibly have been affected by what his mother said about his mother's feelings being hurt. This would not be because he felt remorse but because he felt punished by mother's disapproval. These incidents would finish more tidily if the mother consistently lays down the law to the three year old e.g. "If you don't do as I tell you I will send you to the naughty corner: will not be allowed to play with the new ball all day: I won't make your favourite pizza: etc" The three year old understands quid pro quo but is not up to speed on empathy. The child's response on the occasion you describe is he is learning to be compliant or even manipulative which is not the same as learning to be kind.
Your friend should have endured the temper tantrum and not escalated the affair to emotional blackmail.
https://www.momjunction.com/articles/st ... n_0082017/
We'll have to agree to disagree. First of all, I don't think ending "tidily" is always the desired outcome. It is true that the child was trying to be manipulative; it is not true that he was "learning to be manipulative", because his attempts at manipulation didn't work. Of course he wanted to hurt his mother (because she was hurting him by confiscating some of his toys for a week). That's why he said, "I hate you."

It was the 3-year-old (not the mom) who engaged in "emotional blackmail". The mom simply reacted as she would in any relationship, with an open, honest description of how her son made her feel. How is that "manipulative"? What should her reaction to emotional blackmail be?

To evolution: Lots of people like fighting, including me, when I was a kid (and even now, if you judge by my posts). I doubt the parents fight, although I'm not there all the time.
So, in one sentence you say, "Lots of people like fighting", but in the very next sentence you say you "doubt the parents of that boy fight".
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am Kids fighting with their parents is common at that age, because they are trying to assert their personal autonomy and it's frustrating for them. Since when did anyone say "It's up to the boy to make the mom happy."?
I do not know. When did anyone say this?
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am Is it improper to thank someone (adult or child) if he says he loves you?
Not from my perspective, but then again I am NOT EVERY one, or am 'I'?
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am
I would suggest that if a human being in just three years, and most of that time as a baby, has already learned to "enjoy fighting" and is the one that is "causing ALL the drama", then how that infant has been handled previously, could have been done differently AND better.

But who am 'I' to suggest anything at all?
You are nobody to suggest anything.
Okay, I agree. 'I' am NO body.
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am Your ridiculous cut and respond out of context style of posting reminds me of a tiny dog yapping at my heels. It's annoying, but easy to ignore.
Okay.
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am You want to blame the parents? What for?
Raising their child.

What else did you think we were talking about?
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am Trying to get the kid to pick up his toys? No-- a temper tantrum on the part of the child MUST MEAN errors in PARENTING TECHNIQUES, First of all, why blame anyone?
If the parents of a child are NOT responsible for the child, then who is?
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am Tantrums are normal.
If you say so. Believing this could help explain why you like fighting.
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am Second, this is the same reasoning that would lead you to blame the victim of spousal abuse. Why blame the victim?
Who is the "victim" here?

From your perspective, it is the mom who is the "victim" here, correct?
Ecurb wrote: June 21st, 2020, 10:30 am It is true, of course, that abused women could have prevented the abuse if they behaved differently (perhaps by allowing their abusers to always get their way). But the same reasoning that blames parents for anything the child does also credits parents for the child's achievements. This is exactly what I've been arguing against all along, as you might know if you read people's posts in longer chunks instead of sentence by sentence.
If you had read into what I have been writing, or "between the lines", as they say, you can see that I have read what you have written.

ALL of what you have, so called, been "arguing" against can simply be countered by the very fact that it is mostly the children who thanks, or credits, their parents, for 'being there for them', when they are standing on the podium accepting their awards or achievements.

OBVIOUSLY, children will ONLY credit their parents, when they have been worthy of crediting.

Children will ONLY thank their parents, when they have been Truly thank-full.
popeye1945
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Re: Would it be moraly right to tell young people the truth about life?

Post by popeye1945 »

Pages wrote: June 5th, 2020, 7:18 am We have been lied to. By our parents, teachers, religious leaders, public figures, motivational speakers etc. They used to tell us that you have what it takes to achieve anything irrespective of your family background or whatever factor you are been faced with as long as you work hard enough. Well, now we are older and have realized that that isn't remotely close to the truth. Life is random and it takes luck to be successful. Luck to be born into a privileged home, luck to be raised in a good environment, luck to have the intelligence, luck to be born healthy etc.

So I want to know what you think. Would be better to tell young people that not everyone who works hard makes it in life but, to try the best they can because life does not give anyone insight to who makes it in the end Or to lie to them too until they find it out themselves and then the cycle continues?

Whether you agree or not, disappointments caused by cut expectations can lead to depression and/or suicide.
Hi Pages, To pretend that there is a even playing field is absurd, if your born into poverty you probably have about the same chances as your peers also born into poverty, depending on your given intelligence, and psychological state. If you are born into an unfortunate family situation that alone can have disastrous results upon your intelligence and phycological state/out look. To pretend there is an even playing field is to deny cause and effect, just absurd. Minorities have it even worse, on top of possibly being in poverty they have systemic racism to deal with. Lets face it we do tend to treat people that are most like us just a little kinder. Being born very good looking is like winning the lottery, again we treat pretty people much kinder than the average looking person, or if your unfortunate enough to be born very unattractive, your carrying a rather heavy burden.
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LuckyR
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Re: Would it be moraly right to tell young people the truth about life?

Post by LuckyR »

popeye1945 wrote: November 15th, 2020, 10:08 am
Pages wrote: June 5th, 2020, 7:18 am We have been lied to. By our parents, teachers, religious leaders, public figures, motivational speakers etc. They used to tell us that you have what it takes to achieve anything irrespective of your family background or whatever factor you are been faced with as long as you work hard enough. Well, now we are older and have realized that that isn't remotely close to the truth. Life is random and it takes luck to be successful. Luck to be born into a privileged home, luck to be raised in a good environment, luck to have the intelligence, luck to be born healthy etc.

So I want to know what you think. Would be better to tell young people that not everyone who works hard makes it in life but, to try the best they can because life does not give anyone insight to who makes it in the end Or to lie to them too until they find it out themselves and then the cycle continues?

Whether you agree or not, disappointments caused by cut expectations can lead to depression and/or suicide.
Hi Pages, To pretend that there is a even playing field is absurd, if your born into poverty you probably have about the same chances as your peers also born into poverty, depending on your given intelligence, and psychological state. If you are born into an unfortunate family situation that alone can have disastrous results upon your intelligence and phycological state/out look. To pretend there is an even playing field is to deny cause and effect, just absurd. Minorities have it even worse, on top of possibly being in poverty they have systemic racism to deal with. Lets face it we do tend to treat people that are most like us just a little kinder. Being born very good looking is like winning the lottery, again we treat pretty people much kinder than the average looking person, or if your unfortunate enough to be born very unattractive, your carrying a rather heavy burden.
Nice comment on the playing field. To take it even further, there are variables you can't change (being born into poverty, native intelligence, genetic health risks etc) and there are variables you can change (choosing to work and study hard, delayed gratification etc). Folks who whine about the former are soothing their egos at the expense of their future success, those who apply themselves to the latter end up better than if they didn't, but maybe not as well as a lucky person who didn't apply themselves (the playing field issue). Personally, I don't see the point of worrying about issues that don't apply to me.
"As usual... it depends."
popeye1945
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Re: Would it be moraly right to tell young people the truth about life?

Post by popeye1945 »

"Would it be morally right to tell young people the truth about life?" One might ask is it morally right to tell adults the truth about life. Think of all the absurdities that religions pass-off on people unfamilar with critical thinking. I think that might even be elemental in the present support of religion, most people don't really dig reality--LOL!! and that's a **** load of trouble for humanity's future. There is a natural tendency to wish to protect the young, but to protect them from reality is not a service, but a disservice, and has more to do with your own lack of courage in dealing with the fact you have brought innocence into such a harsh world.
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