Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

[Wossname]

y gad-fly » Today, 12:19 am

Wossname wrote: ↑Yesterday, 9:20 pm

If a country is wealthy why not share it among its citizens?
Not that wealth is not shared. It is, in all western democracies with social welfare policies to safeguard the weak, the aged, and the disabled. It is that the present redistribution of wealth leaves much room to be desired.

Even distribution of wealth is a mirage, to be curbed if it does unfold. Unevenness is what generates competition as fomented by Egoism, the self-centered urge for betterment under whatever circumstance. Without Egoism, we would probably still in the Stone Age, if not the Garden of Eden. in this respect, Egoism is a blessing in disguise, wrongly criticized for being selfish and anti-social.

If people are a mix of selfish and altruistic then our society will, and does, reflect that. Certainly the selfish go-getter, willing to take risks, work and innovate for personal gain, brings an energy that, if properly harnessed, is beneficial to society in general. This is an argument for free capitalism, which fears such energy would be stifled in socialist economies.

On the other hand, a society run by lunatic selfish buggers for lunatic selfish buggers would leave a lot to be desired. The social inequalities and deprivation, the environmental and moral damage would be horrendous. This is an argument for socialism, which sees these as a consequence of untrammelled capitalism.

So balance is all. In the UK at least, where that balance lies has been the political debate for decades. More globally, I think peoples’ views are likely influenced by culture among other things. The USA seems a champion of the free market, and some seem to approach this with an almost religious zeal that is blind to the manifest shortcomings of such. Social inequalities are, you agree, far too high not just in the US but the UK, and around the world. Government is for the people, and should not primarily serve the narrow minded interests of self-centred psychopaths.

So I am (I think) agreeing with you gad-fly! Egoism is not all bad, and as Greta points out, it is to some extent necessary and balance is all. Where that balance should lie is a contentious issue and likely to remain one.

[Sculptor1]

The antonym for Egoism is Collectivism, a close relative to populism, socialism, and communism.
Ego Makes The World Go Round. Let it shine.

Yes, why not be like a VAXXER? In an fully protected position in a collective society, you can be the one that ignores co-operation and thinks only for himself, this acting as a parasite on the good will other society.

[gad-fly]

So balance is all. In the UK at least, where that balance lies has been the political debate for decades. More globally, I think peoples’ views are likely influenced by culture among other things. The USA seems a champion of the free market, and some seem to approach this with an almost religious zeal that is blind to the manifest shortcomings of such. Social inequalities are, you agree, far too high not just in the US but the UK, and around the world. Government is for the people, and should not primarily serve the narrow minded interests of self-centred psychopaths.

So I am (I think) agreeing with you gad-fly! Egoism is not all bad, and as Greta points out, it is to some extent necessary and balance is all. Where that balance should lie is a contentious issue and likely to remain one.

Very valid observation on comparing opposite approaches to the democratic political system.

I maintain that Egoism is more than 'not all that bad". Egoism is as good as altruism. Shouldn't they be antonyms, instead of egoism and collectivism?

[Wossname]

gad-fly » Today, 3:03 pm

I maintain that Egoism is more than 'not all that bad". Egoism is as good as altruism. Shouldn't they be antonyms, instead of egoism and collectivism?

I believe egoism and altruism are antonyms. (Ha! I just checked to be sure).

For myself I would not laud the pursuit of self-interest too far. It does not seem a particularly noble or worthy pursuit, but this is a value judgement. I suspect you and I might balance things differently (but I’m not sure though). I favour co-operative altruism over competitive egoism by and large, for all the reasons given above. In the modern world this seems more important than ever. What with pollution, global warming, modern weaponry, increasing scarcity of resources etc. we’ll either have to learn to respect each other and work together or outcomes are likely to be bleak. Let’s push co-operative altruism I say. In fact, that even seems sensible from the POV of narrow self-interest. And since some egoism may be part of our make-up, we may have to work hard, think about the messages we are giving to our children (and others), to give co-operative altruism the edge. From our discussions elsewhere you know I am in favour of a mixed economy. In the grand scale of things there is space for egoism, but I’d prefer it to be small.

[gad-fly]

I believe egoism and altruism are antonyms. (Ha! I just checked to be sure).

For myself I would not laud the pursuit of self-interest too far. It does not seem a particularly noble or worthy pursuit, but this is a value judgement. I suspect you and I might balance things differently (but I’m not sure though). I favour co-operative altruism over competitive egoism by and large, for all the reasons given above. In the modern world this seems more important than ever. What with pollution, global warming, modern weaponry, increasing scarcity of resources etc. we’ll either have to learn to respect each other and work together or outcomes are likely to be bleak. Let’s push co-operative altruism I say. In fact, that even seems sensible from the POV of narrow self-interest. And since some egoism may be part of our make-up, we may have to work hard, think about the messages we are giving to our children (and others), to give co-operative altruism the edge. From our discussions elsewhere you know I am in favour of a mixed economy. In the grand scale of things there is space for egoism, but I’d prefer it to be small.

Fair enough. Your point is taken and appreciated.

Ego from dictionary. 1. the self of an individual person, the conscious subject. 2. the conscious mind, based on perception of the environment from birth onward: responsible for modifying the antisocial instincts of the ids and itself modified by the conscience.

Note that Ego is itself modified by conscience. What conscience? Conscience may include some degree of self-sacrifice for the public good, or at least something approaching neutral but has no major impact on self-interest.

It would be a moot point to compare whether egoism or altruism is more "more good than bad". Personally, I think altruism should take precedence if given a choice. On the other hand, if the airplane is diving, you should fasten your seat belt first before caring for the kid or grandma sitting next to you.

[Wossname]

gad-fly » Today, 4:42 pm

Ego from dictionary. 1. the self of an individual person, the conscious subject. 2. the conscious mind, based on perception of the environment from birth onward: responsible for modifying the antisocial instincts of the ids and itself modified by the conscience.

Note that Ego is itself modified by conscience. What conscience? Conscience may include some degree of self-sacrifice for the public good, or at least something approaching neutral but has no major impact on self-interest.

It would be a moot point to compare whether egoism or altruism is more "more good than bad". Personally, I think altruism should take precedence if given a choice. On the other hand, if the airplane is diving, you should fasten your seat belt first before caring for the kid or grandma sitting next to you.

FYI point 2 of that definition appears to refer to Freudian theory. Freud believed that there is an aspect of us (a moral conscience) that will make us feel guilty if we do things we believe to be morally wrong. He also believed some people may have a stronger moral conscience than others. If nothing else your description about how you would behave on an aeroplane is honest! (I am not claiming to be any better BTW)!

But that is the id, ego, superego and Freud and we have agreed that is not for this thread.

If you think altruism should take precedence if given a choice then we may be closer in our views than I thought, though I am still not sure of this.

[Gertie]

gad-fly » Today, 3:03 pm

I maintain that Egoism is more than 'not all that bad". Egoism is as good as altruism. Shouldn't they be antonyms, instead of egoism and collectivism?

I believe egoism and altruism are antonyms. (Ha! I just checked to be sure).

For myself I would not laud the pursuit of self-interest too far. It does not seem a particularly noble or worthy pursuit, but this is a value judgement. I suspect you and I might balance things differently (but I’m not sure though). I favour co-operative altruism over competitive egoism by and large, for all the reasons given above. In the modern world this seems more important than ever. What with pollution, global warming, modern weaponry, increasing scarcity of resources etc. we’ll either have to learn to respect each other and work together or outcomes are likely to be bleak. Let’s push co-operative altruism I say. In fact, that even seems sensible from the POV of narrow self-interest. And since some egoism may be part of our make-up, we may have to work hard, think about the messages we are giving to our children (and others), to give co-operative altruism the edge. From our discussions elsewhere you know I am in favour of a mixed economy. In the grand scale of things there is space for egoism, but I’d prefer it to be small.

Yup.

[gad-fly]

gad-fly » Today, 4:42 pm

Ego from dictionary. 1. the self of an individual person, the conscious subject. 2. the conscious mind, based on perception of the environment from birth onward: responsible for modifying the antisocial instincts of the ids and itself modified by the conscience.

Note that Ego is itself modified by conscience. What conscience? Conscience may include some degree of self-sacrifice for the public good, or at least something approaching neutral but has no major impact on self-interest.

It would be a moot point to compare whether egoism or altruism is more "more good than bad". Personally, I think altruism should take precedence if given a choice. On the other hand, if the airplane is diving, you should fasten your seat belt first before caring for the kid or grandma sitting next to you.

FYI point 2 of that definition appears to refer to Freudian theory. Freud believed that there is an aspect of us (a moral conscience) that will make us feel guilty if we do things we believe to be morally wrong. He also believed some people may have a stronger moral conscience than others. If nothing else your description about how you would behave on an aeroplane is honest! (I am not claiming to be any better BTW)!

But that is the id, ego, superego and Freud and we have agreed that is not for this thread.

If you think altruism should take precedence if given a choice then we may be closer in our views than I thought, though I am still not sure of this.

The dictionary definition should arise from Freud. Conscience "make us feel guilty if we do things we believe to be morally wrong" can be shortened as "egoism modified by conscience".

The airplane example happens to coincide with what the airline's advice to passengers. I presume the logical sequence is that you must be in a position to take care of yourself before you can care for others. Does this translate as egoism before altruism? From this angle, Yes.

I can confirm that our views are close enough.

[Pattern-chaser]

This seems to be quite a fun discussion, but it also seems a little confused. Ego is being considered as selfishness, individualist, and also as the Freudian take on ego as well as that of everyday use. Egotistical is often used to mean conceited or arrogant. And then we have the opposites, or maybe complements, of collectivism and altruism.

All of these terms have commonalities, but I don't think they're quite close enough to be considered synonymous, do you?

Since ego comes and goes with absolutely no influence from me, why should I be blamed? Granted ego comes from me alone, should I have the obligation to suppress it, and to nip it in the bud for the benefit of everybody else? But ego is what motivate me. it is what drives me despite myself. Without it, I can be ignored as if I am non-existent.

...

Ego Makes The World Go Round. Let it shine.

I'm not clear about what ego is, in the sense that this topic, and its OP, are discussing it. I don't want to bring the whole discussion down into a definition war, but ego is an interesting concept, one that is very far from simple. The word carries all sorts of meanings, and I am concerned that, as the discussion progresses, we are switching (maybe without realising) between these different meanings as we write, causing confusion. Individualism is an antonym for collectivism, but introducing ego into that equation seems to distort what individualism is. And in what sense is altruism related to ego? And so on...

[gad-fly]

This seems to be quite a fun discussion, but it also seems a little confused.
I'm not clear about what ego is, in the sense that this topic, and its OP, are discussing it.

This is a thread about the performance of egoism, not about how ego is defined. Follow Freud in the latter case as much as you can. You may find him confusing. Admittedly it takes time to digest Freud.

[Wossname]

y Pattern-chaser » Today, 1:40 pm

I'm not clear about what ego is, in the sense that this topic, and its OP, are discussing it. I don't want to bring the whole discussion down into a definition war, but ego is an interesting concept, one that is very far from simple. The word carries all sorts of meanings, and I am concerned that, as the discussion progresses, we are switching (maybe without realising) between these different meanings

gad-fly » Today, 3:37 pm

This is a thread about the performance of egoism, not about how ego is defined. Follow Freud in the latter case as much as you can. You may find him confusing. Admittedly it takes time to digest Freud

You are right, Pattern-chaser, about the risk that this conversation could easily become a bit unfocused, and this is because, as you point out, ego is used in different ways in everyday speech. I gently suggest steering clear of Freud. Freud used terms in a very particular way and he applied egoism to his concept of the selfish, pleasure principle of the id, (not the ego), so we may trip up over the terms if not clear about them. Egoism and ego are quite different in the theory. Our selfish side is largely the id. Dictionary definitions of ego often refer to Freud’s term for the rational, conscious aspect of personality, but this is not, I think, what gad-fly is interested in, (shout out if I’m wrong), and neither do I believe gad-fly that you want this thread to be a discussion of Freud. I did query this on page 2 and was, in turn, gently referred to the title of the thread, (egoism not ego). That said, I may have misinterpreted and I have no wish to suggest conversational boundaries that were not intended.

[gad-fly]

You are right, Pattern-chaser, about the risk that this conversation could easily become a bit unfocused, and this is because, as you point out, ego is used in different ways in everyday speech. I gently suggest steering clear of Freud. Freud used terms in a very particular way and he applied egoism to his concept of the selfish, pleasure principle of the id, (not the ego), so we may trip up over the terms if not clear about them. Egoism and ego are quite different in the theory. Our selfish side is largely the id. Dictionary definitions of ego often refer to Freud’s term for the rational, conscious aspect of personality, but this is not, I think, what gad-fly is interested in, (shout out if I’m wrong), and neither do I believe gad-fly that you want this thread to be a discussion of Freud. I did query this on page 2 and was, in turn, gently referred to the title of the thread, (egoism not ego). That said, I may have misinterpreted and I have no wish to suggest conversational boundaries that were not intended.

I would not wade into the muddy territory of everyday speech on ego. I agree that we cannot detach ego from egoism. There will be no latter without the former.

On id, there is nothing we can do about. id in dictionary: the mass of primitive instincts and energies in the unconscious mind that, modified by the ego and the superego, underlie all psychic activity.

Egoism is a non-psychic activity. Id is modified by the ego, not the other round.

Being a non-psychic activity, egoism is about performance. egoism in dictionary: 1. concern for one's own interests and welfare; 2. the theory that the pursuit of one's own interest is the highest good. Compare altruism.

Egoism is often confused with Egotism: an inflated sense of self-importance and superiority. The difference is distinct, though often not distinguished in everyday speech. I should have pointed this out earlier that egotism is another story.

I take the position of the dictionary. Freud's, I take as elaboration, interpretation, expansion, and origin. So far I have not seen any conflict between the two on egoism, an activity upon which performance we are now reviewing. Egoism (though not so much Egotism) counterbalances Altruism in every respect. The choice is yours. Don't let them put you down.

[Wossname]

y gad-fly » Today, 8:49 pm

I would not wade into the muddy territory of everyday speech on ego. I agree that we cannot detach ego from egoism. There will be no latter without the former.

On id, there is nothing we can do about. id in dictionary: the mass of primitive instincts and energies in the unconscious mind that, modified by the ego and the superego, underlie all psychic activity.

Egoism is a non-psychic activity. Id is modified by the ego, not the other round.

Being a non-psychic activity, egoism is about performance. egoism in dictionary: 1. concern for one's own interests and welfare; 2. the theory that the pursuit of one's own interest is the highest good. Compare altruism.

Egoism is often confused with Egotism: an inflated sense of self-importance and superiority. The difference is distinct, though often not distinguished in everyday speech. I should have pointed this out earlier that egotism is another story.

I take the position of the dictionary. Freud's, I take as elaboration, interpretation, expansion, and origin. So far I have not seen any conflict between the two on egoism, an activity upon which performance we are now reviewing. Egoism (though not so much Egotism) counterbalances Altruism in every respect. The choice is yours. Don't let them put you down.

Well now I must ask for some clarification gad-fly. Apologies if you know this but for any readers who do not, a potted Freudian description of personality goes thusly:

We are born a little bundle of id energy, i.e. a bundle of instinctual urges. Two main ones identified are Thanatos, (death instinct, aggression) and Eros (life instinct - love, creativity, sex). The id operates in the unconscious and wants what it wants when it wants it (pleasure principle). It does not want to wait and cannot be reasoned with (typical spoilt child). Being irrational it is not good at getting what it wants. Next best thing is fantasy.

In time the ego develops. This is real world oriented, (reality principle), operates in the conscious mind and is willing to wait and make plans to get what you want. It is our reasoning, rational side. Later the superego develops. This is the moral component of personality, It mostly operates in the unconscious mind, is not rational (morality principle) and has two components, the ego-ideal which rewards you with good feelings when you do what you think are good things, and the conscience which punishes you with guilt for doing things you think of as bad. The ego is squeezed between id and superego, trying to satisfy their competing demands.

So you are in the street, the id says “I want to go to the loo, I don’t want to wait, I want to go right here and right now!” The superego says “that’s disgusting whatever will people think”, and the ego, trying to satisfy competing demands says “OK, McDonald’s is open across the street, let’s use their loos”. So we are conflicted beings, i.e. there is often conflict between what we want to do and what we think we ought to do and the ego is in the middle trying to resolve matters. Too much inner conflict, or an overly strong id or superego and weak ego and you have problems.

So the ego, in Freud, is the conscious, rational side of personality. If egoism is selfish behaviour, then the root of most selfish behaviour is the id. We don’t know ourselves very well and have urges (especially sexual or aggressive urges) we may not consciously wish to admit to, but they affect our behaviour (and our fantasies). I do not know what you mean by saying egoism is “non-psychic” activity. In Freudian theory the workings of personality are all conceived of as workings of psychic energy.

This is why I gently suggest leaving Freud out of it, at least if you just want to focus on egoism and the merits or otherwise thereof. Critiquing Freud hardly seems necessary. But if you do wish to discuss the term “ego” I will need, as Pattern-chaser has also requested, greater clarity about how you are using the term, since dictionaries don’t explain this stuff, hardly your fault, but in consequence you are not really using “ego” in the Freudian sense. There is an associated thread running, and there too, ego seems to be being interpreted differently by different people. It does make for a disjointed discussion at times.

[Pattern-chaser]

Egoism in dictionary:
1. concern for one's own interests and welfare;
2. the theory that the pursuit of one's own interest is the highest good. Compare altruism.

I take the position of the dictionary. Freud's, I take as elaboration, interpretation, expansion, and origin. So far I have not seen any conflict between the two on egoism, an activity upon which performance we are now reviewing. Egoism (though not so much Egotism) counterbalances Altruism in every respect. The choice is yours. Don't let them put you down.

So egoism is the personal perspective on Individualism. OK. Then I would say it is bad. Here is my analysis.

Humans are social animals. All that humans have achieved, good and bad, has been achieved collectively. This does not dismiss the individual, or deny the contributions made by individuals, but their contributions are made to the tribe (or society, or 'the collective', etc). So in the extreme case of conflict between the individual and the tribe, the tribe will always win. Not because of any intellectual reason, but by sheer force of numbers.

Away from such extremes, it is the case that the contributions of individuals are of great value to the tribe; suppressing individuals is not to the benefit of the tribe. Many times I have heard that "society is composed of individuals; it is individuals that advance society", or words to that effect. And it's sort-of true. But the tribe is more and greater than the sum of its (individual) parts, which is the answer to such objections.

So egoism, which concentrates on the individual, and devalues the tribe, is wrong. Wrong in the sense that it is not in the interest of the tribe, which is all of us, not any one, or any few, of us. This is tempered, but not refuted, by the value of individual contributions, which should not be unnecessarily constrained - also for the good of the tribe.

[gad-fly]

Well now I must ask for some clarification gad-fly.
The id operates in the unconscious and wants what it wants when it wants it (pleasure principle).
In time the ego develops. This is real world oriented, (reality principle), operates in the conscious mind between id and superego.

Agreed.

id in dictionary: the mass of primitive instincts and energies in the unconscious mind that, modified by the ego and the superego, underlie all psychic activity.

ego in dictionary: 1. the self of an individual person; the conscious subject. 2. the conscious mind, based on perception of the environment; responsible for modifying the anti-social behavior of the ids and itself modified by conscience.

superego in dictionary: that part of the unconscious mind that acts as a conscience for the ego, mainly from the relationship between a child and his parents.

NOTE that id and superego both involve the unconscious mind, as against ego which involves the conscious mind.

Egoism in dictionary: 1. concern for one's own interest and welfare. 2.the theory the pursuit of one' own welfare is the highest good.

NOTE there is no such thing as id-ism or superego-ism (because both involves the unconscious mind). Pursuit of one's welfare is self-absorption, not selfish, in the same way that pursuit of others' welfare is not meddlesome.

psychic in dictionary: outside the possibilities defined by natural laws, as mental telepathy.

NOTE above that id involves psychic activities. Hence ego should involve non-psychic activities.

Egotism in dictionary : 1. an inflated sense of self-importance and superiority. 2. excessive reference to oneself.

NOTE that though Egoism and Egotism are categorically different, most people are not aware of there being two different terms, let alone that they mean differently. Unfortunately, they look so alike. Yes, you can call egotism selfish, but not egoism.

"So you are in the street, the id says I want to go to the loo. . . "

NOTE that the id subconsciously forwards the urge to the ego to consciously consider, but the superego subconsciously modifies the urge. Conflict? The ego calling the shot should be fine.

"We have urges (especially sexual or aggressive urges) we may not consciously wish to admit to."

NOTE that we would then be in denial, on ourselves and/or on others. Our ego, not about to face the problem, is hiding and should be aware of hiding. Hiding from being conscious. It happens.

"This is why I gently suggest leaving Freud out of it."

NOTE that I cannot find any reason to. Freud has made it clear, if only we can spend a little time to be inspired by his insight. Try as I may, I cannot find any fault-line based upon which I can challenge him. Enlighten me if you can.