If something is stipulated to rely on direct perception, then it cannot be shown -- it has to be seen by the person themselves, via direct perception.chewybrian wrote: ↑October 25th, 2020, 7:08 am@Marvin_Edwards , you've been called out by several people here and tried to duck the question. Can you show that your idea is objectively true? How can anything be 'objectively true' if it can not be shown so by direct perception or some logic based upon direct perception?
David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
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Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
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Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
I tell you to put your hand on the window, and you feel that the glass is cold. I have shown you that it is cold outside by means of (your) direct perception of the cold glass.baker wrote: ↑December 8th, 2020, 1:18 pmIf something is stipulated to rely on direct perception, then it cannot be shown -- it has to be seen by the person themselves, via direct perception.chewybrian wrote: ↑October 25th, 2020, 7:08 am@Marvin_Edwards , you've been called out by several people here and tried to duck the question. Can you show that your idea is objectively true? How can anything be 'objectively true' if it can not be shown so by direct perception or some logic based upon direct perception?
Or, I tell you to look at the frost which has formed on the window. This implies that it must be cold outside. I have shown you based upon logic, relying on something directly perceived, that it must be cold outside.
I was simply trying to contrast Marvin's statement of alleged fact, that morality is finding the greatest good for the greatest number of people. While it is a fair standard for looking at morality, I don't see it as fact, and see no basis for saying it is a fact. Morality is very difficult to define unless you accept religion or some other dogma as a foundation. Few people even try, though. More often they torture arguments for morality until their preferred outcome just happens to coincidentally be the 'right' thing to do.
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Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
And if I don't meet the requirements necessary for you to show me something directly?chewybrian wrote: ↑December 8th, 2020, 9:00 pmI tell you to put your hand on the window, and you feel that the glass is cold. I have shown you that it is cold outside by means of (your) direct perception of the cold glass.
In that case, direct perception is not an option for me, and I cannot know the thing in question myself.
But maybe Marvin has the direct perception that it is a fact? He certainly seems thusly certain of it.I was simply trying to contrast Marvin's statement of alleged fact, that morality is finding the greatest good for the greatest number of people. While it is a fair standard for looking at morality, I don't see it as fact, and see no basis for saying it is a fact.
What if we simply don't meet the requirements necessary for Marvin to show us something directly?
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Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
baker wrote: ↑December 15th, 2020, 3:39 pm Thank you for your reply. I haven't forgotten about this, I've been thinking about how to formulate this most concisely (although I'm not entirely happy with this either):
And if I don't meet the requirements necessary for you to show me something directly?chewybrian wrote: ↑December 8th, 2020, 9:00 pm
I tell you to put your hand on the window, and you feel that the glass is cold. I have shown you that it is cold outside by means of (your) direct perception of the cold glass.
In that case, direct perception is not an option for me, and I cannot know the thing in question myself.
But maybe Marvin has the direct perception that it is a fact? He certainly seems thusly certain of it.I was simply trying to contrast Marvin's statement of alleged fact, that morality is finding the greatest good for the greatest number of people. While it is a fair standard for looking at morality, I don't see it as fact, and see no basis for saying it is a fact.
What if we simply don't meet the requirements necessary for Marvin to show us something directly?
If Marvin had some magical direct perception that no one else had, it would not be of any help to anyone else. No one else would have any reason to believe him.
And given the history of people claiming to have special direct perceptions of things, which includes Christians of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Christianity, and Muslims of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Islam, and Hindus of various types claiming to directly perceive one or more of their gods, and etc., I say, given that history, every person of sense would know not to pay any attention to such a claim, as such claims frequently contradict other such claims, and none of them give anyone any reason to believe they are true.
The upshot is, if he claimed to have some special direct perception, it would give us reason to disregard whatever he claimed. And probably pay no attention to him for anything else, because people who claim such direct perceptions pretty much never say anything worth hearing.
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Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
When it comes to morality, people often seem to conflate direct perception and their gut feeling/moral indignation.Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑December 15th, 2020, 5:16 pmAnd given the history of people claiming to have special direct perceptions of things, which includes Christians of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Christianity, and Muslims of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Islam, and Hindus of various types claiming to directly perceive one or more of their gods, and etc.,
(Perhaps they do in fact have direct perception -- of their moral indignation.)
And yet empathy, "the sentiment of humanity" is something that has to do with direct perception as well. One directly perceives one's sentiment of humanity.The upshot is, if he claimed to have some special direct perception, it would give us reason to disregard whatever he claimed. And probably pay no attention to him for anything else, because people who claim such direct perceptions pretty much never say anything worth hearing.
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Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
baker wrote: ↑December 16th, 2020, 4:15 amWhen it comes to morality, people often seem to conflate direct perception and their gut feeling/moral indignation.Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑December 15th, 2020, 5:16 pmAnd given the history of people claiming to have special direct perceptions of things, which includes Christians of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Christianity, and Muslims of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Islam, and Hindus of various types claiming to directly perceive one or more of their gods, and etc.,
(Perhaps they do in fact have direct perception -- of their moral indignation.)
And yet empathy, "the sentiment of humanity" is something that has to do with direct perception as well. One directly perceives one's sentiment of humanity.The upshot is, if he claimed to have some special direct perception, it would give us reason to disregard whatever he claimed. And probably pay no attention to him for anything else, because people who claim such direct perceptions pretty much never say anything worth hearing.
The difference is, most people have feelings of empathy or "the sentiment of humanity". If you are a normal person, you have those perceptions as well, and so you don't have to take someone's word for it, because it is not something that you cannot perceive.
It is when someone claims to be able to perceive something that most others cannot, and that someone can give no evidence of actually having the perception, that one should not believe the person.
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Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
You mean causing the least harm for all individuals regardless of their differences, is that what you mean?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2020, 10:23 pm We call something "good" if it meets a real need that we have as an individual, as a society, or as a species.
Morality seeks the best good and the least harm for everyone. That is the objective basis of moral judgment.
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Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy
By "We" Marvin Edwards means Christian and post-Christian moralists. Other societies at other times base and based their morality on other ethics than the Golden Rule democratically interpreted.Kaz_1983 wrote: ↑August 11th, 2021, 1:35 amYou mean causing the least harm for all individuals regardless of their differences, is that what you mean?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑October 23rd, 2020, 10:23 pm We call something "good" if it meets a real need that we have as an individual, as a society, or as a species.
Morality seeks the best good and the least harm for everyone. That is the objective basis of moral judgment.
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