David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Post by baker »

chewybrian wrote: October 25th, 2020, 7:08 am@Marvin_Edwards , you've been called out by several people here and tried to duck the question. Can you show that your idea is objectively true? How can anything be 'objectively true' if it can not be shown so by direct perception or some logic based upon direct perception?
If something is stipulated to rely on direct perception, then it cannot be shown -- it has to be seen by the person themselves, via direct perception.
User avatar
chewybrian
Posts: 1594
Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
Location: Florida man

Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Post by chewybrian »

baker wrote: December 8th, 2020, 1:18 pm
chewybrian wrote: October 25th, 2020, 7:08 am@Marvin_Edwards , you've been called out by several people here and tried to duck the question. Can you show that your idea is objectively true? How can anything be 'objectively true' if it can not be shown so by direct perception or some logic based upon direct perception?
If something is stipulated to rely on direct perception, then it cannot be shown -- it has to be seen by the person themselves, via direct perception.
I tell you to put your hand on the window, and you feel that the glass is cold. I have shown you that it is cold outside by means of (your) direct perception of the cold glass.

Or, I tell you to look at the frost which has formed on the window. This implies that it must be cold outside. I have shown you based upon logic, relying on something directly perceived, that it must be cold outside.

I was simply trying to contrast Marvin's statement of alleged fact, that morality is finding the greatest good for the greatest number of people. While it is a fair standard for looking at morality, I don't see it as fact, and see no basis for saying it is a fact. Morality is very difficult to define unless you accept religion or some other dogma as a foundation. Few people even try, though. More often they torture arguments for morality until their preferred outcome just happens to coincidentally be the 'right' thing to do.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Post by baker »

Thank you for your reply. I haven't forgotten about this, I've been thinking about how to formulate this most concisely (although I'm not entirely happy with this either):

chewybrian wrote: December 8th, 2020, 9:00 pm
baker wrote: December 8th, 2020, 1:18 pm If something is stipulated to rely on direct perception, then it cannot be shown -- it has to be seen by the person themselves, via direct perception.
I tell you to put your hand on the window, and you feel that the glass is cold. I have shown you that it is cold outside by means of (your) direct perception of the cold glass.
And if I don't meet the requirements necessary for you to show me something directly?
In that case, direct perception is not an option for me, and I cannot know the thing in question myself.

I was simply trying to contrast Marvin's statement of alleged fact, that morality is finding the greatest good for the greatest number of people. While it is a fair standard for looking at morality, I don't see it as fact, and see no basis for saying it is a fact.
But maybe Marvin has the direct perception that it is a fact? He certainly seems thusly certain of it.
What if we simply don't meet the requirements necessary for Marvin to show us something directly?
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Post by Jack D Ripper »

baker wrote: December 15th, 2020, 3:39 pm Thank you for your reply. I haven't forgotten about this, I've been thinking about how to formulate this most concisely (although I'm not entirely happy with this either):

chewybrian wrote: December 8th, 2020, 9:00 pm
I tell you to put your hand on the window, and you feel that the glass is cold. I have shown you that it is cold outside by means of (your) direct perception of the cold glass.
And if I don't meet the requirements necessary for you to show me something directly?
In that case, direct perception is not an option for me, and I cannot know the thing in question myself.

I was simply trying to contrast Marvin's statement of alleged fact, that morality is finding the greatest good for the greatest number of people. While it is a fair standard for looking at morality, I don't see it as fact, and see no basis for saying it is a fact.
But maybe Marvin has the direct perception that it is a fact? He certainly seems thusly certain of it.
What if we simply don't meet the requirements necessary for Marvin to show us something directly?

If Marvin had some magical direct perception that no one else had, it would not be of any help to anyone else. No one else would have any reason to believe him.

And given the history of people claiming to have special direct perceptions of things, which includes Christians of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Christianity, and Muslims of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Islam, and Hindus of various types claiming to directly perceive one or more of their gods, and etc., I say, given that history, every person of sense would know not to pay any attention to such a claim, as such claims frequently contradict other such claims, and none of them give anyone any reason to believe they are true.

The upshot is, if he claimed to have some special direct perception, it would give us reason to disregard whatever he claimed. And probably pay no attention to him for anything else, because people who claim such direct perceptions pretty much never say anything worth hearing.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Post by baker »

Jack D Ripper wrote: December 15th, 2020, 5:16 pmAnd given the history of people claiming to have special direct perceptions of things, which includes Christians of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Christianity, and Muslims of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Islam, and Hindus of various types claiming to directly perceive one or more of their gods, and etc.,
When it comes to morality, people often seem to conflate direct perception and their gut feeling/moral indignation.

(Perhaps they do in fact have direct perception -- of their moral indignation.)
The upshot is, if he claimed to have some special direct perception, it would give us reason to disregard whatever he claimed. And probably pay no attention to him for anything else, because people who claim such direct perceptions pretty much never say anything worth hearing.
And yet empathy, "the sentiment of humanity" is something that has to do with direct perception as well. One directly perceives one's sentiment of humanity.
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Post by Jack D Ripper »

baker wrote: December 16th, 2020, 4:15 am
Jack D Ripper wrote: December 15th, 2020, 5:16 pmAnd given the history of people claiming to have special direct perceptions of things, which includes Christians of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Christianity, and Muslims of various types claiming to directly perceive god and confirm their brand of Islam, and Hindus of various types claiming to directly perceive one or more of their gods, and etc.,
When it comes to morality, people often seem to conflate direct perception and their gut feeling/moral indignation.

(Perhaps they do in fact have direct perception -- of their moral indignation.)
The upshot is, if he claimed to have some special direct perception, it would give us reason to disregard whatever he claimed. And probably pay no attention to him for anything else, because people who claim such direct perceptions pretty much never say anything worth hearing.
And yet empathy, "the sentiment of humanity" is something that has to do with direct perception as well. One directly perceives one's sentiment of humanity.

The difference is, most people have feelings of empathy or "the sentiment of humanity". If you are a normal person, you have those perceptions as well, and so you don't have to take someone's word for it, because it is not something that you cannot perceive.

It is when someone claims to be able to perceive something that most others cannot, and that someone can give no evidence of actually having the perception, that one should not believe the person.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
Kaz_1983
Posts: 432
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 10:23 pm We call something "good" if it meets a real need that we have as an individual, as a society, or as a species.

Morality seeks the best good and the least harm for everyone. That is the objective basis of moral judgment.
You mean causing the least harm for all individuals regardless of their differences, is that what you mean?
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: David Hume is Right: The Foundation of Ethics is Empathy

Post by Belindi »

Kaz_1983 wrote: August 11th, 2021, 1:35 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 23rd, 2020, 10:23 pm We call something "good" if it meets a real need that we have as an individual, as a society, or as a species.

Morality seeks the best good and the least harm for everyone. That is the objective basis of moral judgment.
You mean causing the least harm for all individuals regardless of their differences, is that what you mean?
By "We" Marvin Edwards means Christian and post-Christian moralists. Other societies at other times base and based their morality on other ethics than the Golden Rule democratically interpreted.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021