The Foundation of Ethics

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Alias wrote: November 1st, 2020, 11:15 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 1st, 2020, 8:08 am [There must first exist an agency that has both the power and resources to do the enforcing.]

That's what we do together through government.
And you actually believe government consists of us, together, and does what we, collectively, want done? How old are you?
Marvin wrote:Laws arise by agreement.]
[A: Or force of arms.]
A nation or state is constituted by an agreement like the Constitution for the United States of America. Within that agreement is defined an elected legislature which reaches further agreements between us as to what laws we will have at any point in time.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: Have you any frickin idea what-all your law enforcement agencies are up to, how they operate, what powers and indemnities they have, to whom, if anyone, they answer, what their operating budgets are --- or even, how many of them there are?
Marvin wrote:[ states are morally obligated to provide the means to meet at least the most basic needs for every person.]
[ And do they? ]

Yes. There are many public assistance programs like food stamps, welfare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, workman's compensation, etc.
Aha. That'll keep a Black kid out of the gangs, and safe from being shot down in the street by a cop.
never mind your age... What planet do you live on?
Are you ready to vote for the people who will do this? I am. So, stop bugging me.
Alias
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Alias »

Done.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Mark_Lee
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Mark_Lee »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 27th, 2020, 8:25 am How would we determine which rule is morally better than the other? What is the criteria by which these two rules (or any two rules) can be morally compared?
By a transcendent being who tells us so. This transcendent being is either a person or God Himself. Otherwise, the only alternative we have outside of those two options is what a coconut would say.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Mark_Lee wrote: November 4th, 2020, 7:18 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 27th, 2020, 8:25 am How would we determine which rule is morally better than the other? What is the criteria by which these two rules (or any two rules) can be morally compared?
By a transcendent being who tells us so. This transcendent being is either a person or God Himself. Otherwise, the only alternative we have outside of those two options is what a coconut would say.
I think the correct answer is that we compare the benefits and harms of one rule versus the benefits and harms of the other rule. The rule with the best benefits and/or least harms for everyone would be chosen. That's how moral judgement works.

The consequentialist writes the rules. The deontologist disseminates the rules as the word of God (or of the coconut).
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Calico
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

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Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 4th, 2020, 5:37 pm I think the correct answer is that we compare the benefits and harms of one rule versus the benefits and harms of the other rule. The rule with the best benefits and/or least harms for everyone would be chosen. That's how moral judgement works.
I think it's important to point out that this process of "comparing benefits" is an ongoing evolutionary process. After all, once upon a time it was determined to be best to burn witches, keep slaves, etc.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Calico wrote: November 5th, 2020, 10:40 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 4th, 2020, 5:37 pm I think the correct answer is that we compare the benefits and harms of one rule versus the benefits and harms of the other rule. The rule with the best benefits and/or least harms for everyone would be chosen. That's how moral judgement works.
I think it's important to point out that this process of "comparing benefits" is an ongoing evolutionary process. After all, once upon a time it was determined to be best to burn witches, keep slaves, etc.
Absolutely. And that's why the benefits and harms should be objective evidence rather than subjective beliefs.
Kaz_1983
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 27th, 2020, 11:27 pm
Gertie wrote: October 27th, 2020, 7:12 pm By trying to assess which better promotes the wellbeing of conscious creatures.
I generally agree. But the wellbeing of tigers may be promoted by killing antelopes. And the wellbeing of humans may be promoted by killing chickens, pigs, and cows. So I think that what is good for one species may be harmful to another.
Your comparing humans and tigers, one has moral agency, the other doesn't - this "moral agency" gives humans the ability to filter our desires and emotions. Anyways, how does human well-being need to rely on the killing of chickens, pigs and cows?
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Kaz_1983 wrote: November 16th, 2020, 1:02 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 27th, 2020, 11:27 pm

I generally agree. But the wellbeing of tigers may be promoted by killing antelopes. And the wellbeing of humans may be promoted by killing chickens, pigs, and cows. So I think that what is good for one species may be harmful to another.
Your comparing humans and tigers, one has moral agency, the other doesn't - this "moral agency" gives humans the ability to filter our desires and emotions. Anyways, how does human well-being need to rely on the killing of chickens, pigs and cows?
Food, of course.
Kaz_1983
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 16th, 2020, 8:24 am
Kaz_1983 wrote: November 16th, 2020, 1:02 am
Your comparing humans and tigers, one has moral agency, the other doesn't - this "moral agency" gives humans the ability to filter our desires and emotions. Anyways, how does human well-being need to rely on the killing of chickens, pigs and cows?
Food, of course.
When it comes to food, human beings don't need to kill chickens, pigs and cows. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are some situations where we need too but if you've got a supermarket near you (unlike the tigers..), eating meat is not done cos it's essential to promote human well-being.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

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Kaz_1983 wrote: November 16th, 2020, 6:07 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 16th, 2020, 8:24 am

Food, of course.
When it comes to food, human beings don't need to kill chickens, pigs and cows. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are some situations where we need too but if you've got a supermarket near you (unlike the tigers..), eating meat is not done cos it's essential to promote human well-being.
Eating meat becomes necessary during an ice age. But, we seem to be delaying the next ice age with global warming. So, eating meat is probably not essential, for now.
Kaz_1983
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Kaz_1983 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: October 27th, 2020, 11:27 pm...eating meat is probably not essential
No probably about it, meat isn't essential.
popeye1945
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by popeye1945 »

How would we determine which rule is morally better than the other? What is the criteria by which these two rules (or any two rules) can be morally compared?
[/quote]

Hi Marvin,
Morality is a social construct, so values arrive in relation to the well-being of the group. If you think of society as a human biological extension, it will like any organism fight to survive. Morality and autonomy are mutually exclusive, if one wants autonomy one cannot belong to the group.
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Re: The Foundation of Ethics

Post by Alias »

For long-term survival, and even more essentially for long-term well-being of humans in groups, autonomy and obligation have to be in balance: what's good for the individual and what's good for the group overlap, but are not perfectly congruent. Sometimes one and sometimes the other takes priority: it's a continuous nagotiation.
I say obligation rather than morality, because 'morality' is a larger, more nebulous concept than is encompassed by the ethical behaviours required of a social animal. Don't kill or hurt each other; don't take each other's stuff or mates or fishing holes without permission; don't piss on each other's patch of ground; do your share of the unpleasant chores; contribute your share to the commonweal - that's simple legal-code morality that anyone can understand.

The larger concept of morality is longer-term still. It's about the individual's and the group's relationship to the world. It can be, but doesn't have to be spiritual. It does have to be philosophical: based on a principle; a perception of and attitude to, the environment. Both the individual and the group behave in a certain way if their principle is: "I/we have dominion over everything/everyone else." and in a very different way if their central tenet is "I/we belong in the world." and differently again if their notions is "I/we are not of this world."
Their guiding principle determines how they behave and how they behave determines what happens to their environment and that determines how long their environment can sustain them. If man feels at one with the nature around him, he will respect, even revere, other life forms and limit the harm he does as much as possible.
Once he's able to produce clean, nutritious food to replace killed protein, he'll stop killing and keep his own population in check, to allow with other populations to thrive also.
If man owns everything else; if defeating other men and eating animals are considered virtues rather than an occasional necessity, then human will out-multiply their food supply, beef cattle will replace rain-forests, methane will replace oxygen and everybody will choke to death.
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