Morality is based on desire.

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
Marvin_Edwards
Posts: 1106
Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Contact:

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

popeye1945 wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 12:34 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 11:18 am

Let's explore that. Why did humans invent morality? And how do we decide what we ought to do in a given situation?

You see, the Pragmatist wants to know the use of the notion (its "cash value"). How does the notion of morality, and thoughts of what we ought to do, function in our daily lives?
popeye1945 wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 12:35 pm The only reasonable answer to the above is, a morality based upon our common biology, that which supports life and well being is morality across the board.
Exactly.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 9:35 am
Count Lucanor wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 11:47 am
Blood flowing might be one of many necessary conditions for humans at the lower order to carry out any activity, to feel, to think, etc., but not all of them, alone or in combination, make the necessary and sufficient conditions to allow the emergence of features at the higher order. Rationality is one of such things that add to the necessary and sufficient conditions for there being a moral stance. Any moral stance requires prior judgement about states of the world and ourselves. Moral stance implies a resolution, an arrival to a conclusive state where the subject feels able to qualify an action as good or bad, and this is the basis of morality as a normative system.
Reason is not at all sufficient for a moral stance. And reason can't at all result in a root or foundational moral stance.
I said it is one of the things that adds to the necessary and sufficient conditions for there being a moral stance, not that it is the only thing.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 9:38 am Reason is also not necessary for moral stances, by the way.
Yes it is, of course.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station »

Count Lucanor wrote: November 24th, 2020, 12:00 am
Terrapin Station wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 9:35 am

Reason is not at all sufficient for a moral stance. And reason can't at all result in a root or foundational moral stance.
I said it is one of the things that adds to the necessary and sufficient conditions for there being a moral stance, not that it is the only thing.
Which wouldn't make it any different than (blood) circulation, or having a kidney, or being conscious, or breathing, etc. in terms of sufficiency. It does make it different than those things in terms of necessity, because reason isn't necessary for having moral stances.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station »

Count Lucanor wrote: November 24th, 2020, 12:01 am
Terrapin Station wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 9:38 am Reason is also not necessary for moral stances, by the way.
Yes it is, of course.
Great argument.

Here's the counterargument:
No, it isn't, of course.

I'll flesh that out a bit more, where you didn't. All that's required to have a moral stance is that you have a yay or boo-type reaction to some behavior. Reason isn't necessary to have a yay or boo-type reaction to behavior. That's purely an "emotional" response.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 24th, 2020, 8:00 am
Count Lucanor wrote: November 24th, 2020, 12:01 am
Yes it is, of course.
Great argument.

Here's the counterargument:
No, it isn't, of course.
Yes, I know those are the kinds of arguments you love. It's a Terrapin Station kind of argument.
Terrapin Station wrote: November 24th, 2020, 8:00 am I'll flesh that out a bit more, where you didn't.
Why should I? Who wants to waste lots of words that will not be of any interest to the other party.
Terrapin Station wrote: November 24th, 2020, 8:00 amAll that's required to have a moral stance is that you have a yay or boo-type reaction to some behavior. Reason isn't necessary to have a yay or boo-type reaction to behavior. That's purely an "emotional" response.
No, that's not what is required and you have not provided a single argument to support it. It is just a statement of what you believe. Fine, keep believing it.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station »

Count Lucanor wrote: November 24th, 2020, 9:11 am
Terrapin Station wrote: November 24th, 2020, 8:00 am

Great argument.

Here's the counterargument:
No, it isn't, of course.
Yes, I know those are the kinds of arguments you love. It's a Terrapin Station kind of argument.
Terrapin Station wrote: November 24th, 2020, 8:00 am I'll flesh that out a bit more, where you didn't.
Why should I? Who wants to waste lots of words that will not be of any interest to the other party.
Terrapin Station wrote: November 24th, 2020, 8:00 amAll that's required to have a moral stance is that you have a yay or boo-type reaction to some behavior. Reason isn't necessary to have a yay or boo-type reaction to behavior. That's purely an "emotional" response.
No, that's not what is required and you have not provided a single argument to support it. It is just a statement of what you believe. Fine, keep believing it.
If you're going to start the old "this is an argument but that's not" nonsense, then you'd need to set out your criteria for what's to count as an argument and why.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station »

By the way, that "All that's required to have a moral stance is that you have a yay or boo-type reaction to some behavior" isn't something that somehow hinges on an argument. It's an empirical fact, made the case due to there being people (a) who have a moral stance simply as a yay/boo reaction to some behavior or other, and (b) who have no rational activity as a basis for that yay/boo reaction present in their mind.

There would only need to be one instance of that to falsify "Rationality is necessary as a basis for moral stances," but there are many more instances of it than one.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 24th, 2020, 10:47 am By the way, that "All that's required to have a moral stance is that you have a yay or boo-type reaction to some behavior" isn't something that somehow hinges on an argument. It's an empirical fact, made the case due to there being people (a) who have a moral stance simply as a yay/boo reaction to some behavior or other, and (b) who have no rational activity as a basis for that yay/boo reaction present in their mind.
So, you keep peddling the idea that people can simply switch their rationality on and off. That's complete nonsense, far from any empirical fact.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station »

Count Lucanor wrote: November 24th, 2020, 9:09 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: November 24th, 2020, 10:47 am By the way, that "All that's required to have a moral stance is that you have a yay or boo-type reaction to some behavior" isn't something that somehow hinges on an argument. It's an empirical fact, made the case due to there being people (a) who have a moral stance simply as a yay/boo reaction to some behavior or other, and (b) who have no rational activity as a basis for that yay/boo reaction present in their mind.
So, you keep peddling the idea that people can simply switch their rationality on and off. That's complete nonsense, far from any empirical fact.
How in the world would you be thinking that people are never conscious without being rational? Do you believe that they're rational when unconscious, too?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station »

Also, aside from the fact that people can be conscious without having rational mental activity present at that moment, I didn't even say "S has a moral stance while S has no rational activity occurring." I said "[S has a moral stance] . . . [with] no rational activity as a basis for that yay/boo reaction present in their mind."

But sure, S can have a moral stance while S has no rational activity occurring. It would be bizarre to say that people can't possibly be conscious without rational activity occurring. What would your mind have to be like, experientially, to constantly be thinking rationally?

Unless, again, you're defining rationality so broadly that you're basically making it synonymous with consciousness period. But that would be a highly unusual way to use the term "rational." (Not that you'd not be free to use a term an unusual way if you want to, but you'd need to keep explaining it to others if you want them to understand your claims.)
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 25th, 2020, 6:33 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: November 24th, 2020, 9:09 pm
So, you keep peddling the idea that people can simply switch their rationality on and off. That's complete nonsense, far from any empirical fact.
How in the world would you be thinking that people are never conscious without being rational?
I asked you first: how in the world would you be thinking that people can be conscious without being rational?
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 26th, 2020, 7:35 am Also, aside from the fact that people can be conscious without having rational mental activity present at that moment,
Can you show any examples of such bizarre cases?
Terrapin Station wrote: November 26th, 2020, 7:35 am I didn't even say "S has a moral stance while S has no rational activity occurring." I said "[S has a moral stance] . . . [with] no rational activity as a basis for that yay/boo reaction present in their mind."
It seems obvious that what you call the "basis for that yay/boo reaction" is nothing but a supposedly a priori faculty, prior to experience. What is the scientific or philosophical basis for that a priori faculty?
Terrapin Station wrote: November 26th, 2020, 7:35 amIt would be bizarre to say that people can't possibly be conscious without rational activity occurring. What would your mind have to be like, experientially, to constantly be thinking rationally?

Unless, again, you're defining rationality so broadly that you're basically making it synonymous with consciousness period. But that would be a highly unusual way to use the term "rational." (Not that you'd not be free to use a term an unusual way if you want to, but you'd need to keep explaining it to others if you want them to understand your claims.)
If you ever get interested, this previous post with a link, which you previously ignored, could solve most of the misconceptions you have about the basics of human cognition: Prefrontal Cortex and Executive Functions
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station »

Count Lucanor wrote: November 27th, 2020, 12:46 pm I asked you first: how in the world would you be thinking that people can be conscious without being rational?
For one, you can simply be awake/aware but have no thought present at all. I'm in that state often enough.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Count Lucanor »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 28th, 2020, 9:11 am
Count Lucanor wrote: November 27th, 2020, 12:46 pm I asked you first: how in the world would you be thinking that people can be conscious without being rational?
For one, you can simply be awake/aware but have no thought present at all. I'm in that state often enough.
No, that's not possible. Although I could be very much tempted to accept your confession that you're often disconnected from common sense, I will decline. I'm surprised, though, of your naive understanding of cognition, which apparently confuses ordinary thought with systematic theoretical constructions, that is, between the basic common sense present in human awareness states and the elaborated concepts of complex reflections.

Common sense is not what you would call an irrational feature of cognition:
Common Sense
"Common sense is sound practical judgement concerning everyday matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.

The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as "the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they ought to be done". The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative thought." The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them."


Just as there is common sense wisdom, there's common sense ethics:

Common Sense Ethics
‘Common-sense ethics’ refers to the pre-theoretical moral judgments of ordinary people.

Common-sense ethics relies on the five senses, as well as memory and reason, without the need to morally justify one’s position. This is because we have no other resources for making judgments, to call upon to justification of this reliance...

Likely, the choice made would be based on System 1 thinking. This is our intuitive system of processing information: fast, automatic, effortless, and emotional decision processes. There is no time for System 2 thinking, which is slower, conscious, effortful, explicit, and a more reasoned decision process.

System 1 thinking is consistent with common-sense ethics. We might quickly gauge the harms and benefits of the alternative actions, but not in a systematic way. There is no time to do so.

Common sense ethics is influenced by the values we hold dear. We are taught never to kill so we may choose to let the trolley do the killing without our interference.

Our common-sense ethics becomes stronger the more we practice intuitive decision-making and gain knowledge from our experiences – a better way to quickly think through what is most important. Common-sense ethics strengthens with repetition because we gain wisdom from our experiences and are better able to decide quickly what the right thing to do is."
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021