Morality is based on desire.

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Wossname
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Wossname »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 3:44 pm by Marvin_Edwards » Today, 7:44 pm

Wossname wrote: ↑Today, 2:16 pm
...

You keep sliding between different uses of “ought”.

There is the term as applied to the way the world is, as in “if you want that brick to fall you ought to try letting go of it”, or “if you want to improve fitness you ought to try jogging”, and then there is the term as applied to moral argument as in “you ought not to hurt people unnecessarily”.

I cannot see that you have anywhere derived the second, moral sort of ought, which is the topic of this thread, from the ought relating to the way the world is. You just keep restating your personal prejudices, which you are welcome to to be sure, but it is not reasoned argument. This has been pointed out by so many so often, and you have kept on trying to spin the one into the other, that it is a wonder you are not quite dizzy.
Let's fill those two statements out:
A. If you want that brick to fall then you ought to let go of it.
B. If you want to act morally then you ought not hurt people unnecessarily.

Now the content is different, but the form is indistinguishable, and the meaning of "ought" is identical. In order to accomplish X, you ought (or ought not) do Y.


"A" is true due to gravity.
"B" is true due to the objective goal of morality (to achieve the best good and the least harm for everyone).

Ahh Marvin, you really don’t want to play do you?

A) relates to a law of physics, objective in the sense of inter-subjectively testable, empirically supported. We can let go the brick and see it fall.
B) relates to your subjective opinion of what morality is. Boldly stating it is objective assumes what is in question and it clearly is not inter-subjectively agreed and I and others have explained that we believe it is not, as you keep stating, objective. We can hurt people and not see anything beyond that. Whether it was an immoral act is a further judgement. You can apply your judgement, but it is all yours. Others will apply judgements of their own. You can disagree, but all you do is keep restating your own opinion. You offer no reason to agree with it that does not assume what is in question.

But since you are clearly not interested in engaging I’ll leave it there too.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Wossname wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 6:18 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 3:44 pm by Marvin_Edwards » Today, 7:44 pm

Wossname wrote: ↑Today, 2:16 pm
...

You keep sliding between different uses of “ought”.

There is the term as applied to the way the world is, as in “if you want that brick to fall you ought to try letting go of it”, or “if you want to improve fitness you ought to try jogging”, and then there is the term as applied to moral argument as in “you ought not to hurt people unnecessarily”.

I cannot see that you have anywhere derived the second, moral sort of ought, which is the topic of this thread, from the ought relating to the way the world is. You just keep restating your personal prejudices, which you are welcome to to be sure, but it is not reasoned argument. This has been pointed out by so many so often, and you have kept on trying to spin the one into the other, that it is a wonder you are not quite dizzy.
Let's fill those two statements out:
A. If you want that brick to fall then you ought to let go of it.
B. If you want to act morally then you ought not hurt people unnecessarily.

Now the content is different, but the form is indistinguishable, and the meaning of "ought" is identical. In order to accomplish X, you ought (or ought not) do Y.


"A" is true due to gravity.
"B" is true due to the objective goal of morality (to achieve the best good and the least harm for everyone).

Ahh Marvin, you really don’t want to play do you?

A) relates to a law of physics, objective in the sense of inter-subjectively testable, empirically supported. We can let go the brick and see it fall.
B) relates to your subjective opinion of what morality is. Boldly stating it is objective assumes what is in question and it clearly is not inter-subjectively agreed and I and others have explained that we believe it is not, as you keep stating, objective. We can hurt people and not see anything beyond that. Whether it was an immoral act is a further judgement. You can apply your judgement, but it is all yours. Others will apply judgements of their own. You can disagree, but all you do is keep restating your own opinion. You offer no reason to agree with it that does not assume what is in question.

But since you are clearly not interested in engaging I’ll leave it there too.
Explaining why "morality is about achieving the best good and least harm for everyone" is objectively true is a bit long. I've created a new topic to answer your question.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

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Gertie wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 2:20 pm ...if it's axiomatically true it's objective
If it's axiomatically true, that means that we have defined it to be true. [ Usually we do this because we think it's true, we'd like it to be true, and want it to be true, but cannot demonstrate, never mind prove, that it's true. ] That's quite different from being objectively true, which refers to a true and correct correspondence between something and the real world.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

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Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 21st, 2020, 10:46 am I probably should have stopped my list of axioms at "Life is good". Do you disagree with that axiom?
How can I agree or disagree with something so poorly defined? The meaning of "Life", as you use it, seems pretty clear. But what does "good" mean when applied to life? That isn't clear. And that's rather the theme of this discussion, isn't it? 😉
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station »

Count Lucanor wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 11:47 am
Terrapin Station wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 9:32 am

You blood has to be flowing to have moral stances, too, but moral stances--at least foundational ones, have nothing to do with your blood flowing.

Reason has the same relationship to moral stances.
Blood flowing might be one of many necessary conditions for humans at the lower order to carry out any activity, to feel, to think, etc., but not all of them, alone or in combination, make the necessary and sufficient conditions to allow the emergence of features at the higher order. Rationality is one of such things that add to the necessary and sufficient conditions for there being a moral stance. Any moral stance requires prior judgement about states of the world and ourselves. Moral stance implies a resolution, an arrival to a conclusive state where the subject feels able to qualify an action as good or bad, and this is the basis of morality as a normative system.
Reason is not at all sufficient for a moral stance. And reason can't at all result in a root or foundational moral stance.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

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Reason is also not necessary for moral stances, by the way.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

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(unlike flowing blood)
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 9:17 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 21st, 2020, 10:46 am I probably should have stopped my list of axioms at "Life is good". Do you disagree with that axiom?
How can I agree or disagree with something so poorly defined? The meaning of "Life", as you use it, seems pretty clear. But what does "good" mean when applied to life? That isn't clear. And that's rather the theme of this discussion, isn't it? 😉
The obvious answer is that if Life IS good, then murdering someone is bad, and one OUGHT NOT do it.

The link of other rules to the premise is not always obvious, but can be directly or indirectly linked as well. For example, why is stealing considered wrong? Because we need things to live. Food, clothes, etc. Steal my food and my coat and I'll starve or freeze to death in a snowstorm.

Even more indirectly, why do we encourage our children to go to college? Because they are more likely to earn enough money to buy food and a coat. So, college, for those able to benefit from it, is a good thing.

But if "Life is good" is not a reliable axiom, then on what else can anyone base their decisions as to what is good and what is bad, and what ought they to do and what ought they not do?

For example, how does one explain our "dispositions to object to unfair treatment" if life, and its quality, has no moral value?
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

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Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 9:46 am But if "Life is good" is not a reliable axiom, then on what else can anyone base their decisions as to what is good and what is bad, and what ought they to do and what ought they not do?
The formal answer is, I think, that we don't know that. Morality is a human invention. It is what we say it is. As far as I know there is no formal justification for our moralities. So what "ought" people to do? I don't think we have a justifiable answer to that question.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 10:21 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 9:46 am But if "Life is good" is not a reliable axiom, then on what else can anyone base their decisions as to what is good and what is bad, and what ought they to do and what ought they not do?
The formal answer is, I think, that we don't know that. Morality is a human invention. It is what we say it is. As far as I know there is no formal justification for our moralities. So what "ought" people to do? I don't think we have a justifiable answer to that question.
Let's explore that. Why did humans invent morality? And how do we decide what we ought to do in a given situation?

You see, the Pragmatist wants to know the use of the notion (its "cash value"). How does the notion of morality, and thoughts of what we ought to do, function in our daily lives?
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by popeye1945 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 11:18 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 10:21 am

The formal answer is, I think, that we don't know that. Morality is a human invention. It is what we say it is. As far as I know there is no formal justification for our moralities. So what "ought" people to do? I don't think we have a justifiable answer to that question.
Let's explore that. Why did humans invent morality? And how do we decide what we ought to do in a given situation?

You see, the Pragmatist wants to know the use of the notion (its "cash value"). How does the notion of morality, and thoughts of what we ought to do, function in our daily lives?


The only reasonable answer to the above is, a biology based upon our common biology, that which supports life and well being is morality across the board.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

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Sorry about that a morality based upon our common biology.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

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I don't believe that morality is a human invention, by the way. Species that we evolved from, such as apes, for example, seem to feel that some behavior is kosher and other behavior is not kosher. It's something that arises once nervous systems/brains become complex enough for creatures to have dispositions towards the behaviors of other creatures--of their own and different species. Phylogenetically that happens prior to arriving at humans.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by popeye1945 »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 12:46 pm I don't believe that morality is a human invention, by the way. Species that we evolved from, such as apes, for example, seem to feel that some behavior is kosher and other behavior is not kosher. It's something that arises once nervous systems/brains become complex enough for creatures to have dispositions towards the behaviors of other creatures--of their own and different species. Phylogenetically that happens prior to arriving at humans.

Hi Terrapin, That which is created as biological extension must necessarily have as it ultimate focus that biology. As you have stated, morality begins with biology, and has an evolutionary development. When one loses sight of this, endless complexities arise.
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by popeye1945 »

A needy biology is desire and want, resulting in pain and pleasure, seeking pleasure, avoiding pain.
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