Morality is based on desire.

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Wossname
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Wossname » November 19th, 2020, 2:18 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:10 pm
Marvin_Edwards » 7 minutes ago

Wossname wrote: ↑21 minutes ago
Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑49 minutes ago
"Why is lying morally wrong?".


If lying to a carrot serves the interests of your family (it’s just a little wash little carrot, feel the water, it is quite warm and not cold at all), then I don’t think it need be wrong to lie.
So, you're saying that lying is conditionally immoral. Under what conditions is it immoral to lie, and why is it immoral to lie under those conditions? By the way, this is the same question, but you seem to be a bit difficult to coral into actually addressing the question. Why is it ever immoral to lie?

OK I can take a hint. Let’s move on.

How about it is wrong to lie if it hurts those I care about? Because that would upset me.

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards » November 19th, 2020, 4:05 pm

Wossname wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:18 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 2:10 pm
Marvin_Edwards » 7 minutes ago

Wossname wrote: ↑21 minutes ago
Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑49 minutes ago
"Why is lying morally wrong?".


If lying to a carrot serves the interests of your family (it’s just a little wash little carrot, feel the water, it is quite warm and not cold at all), then I don’t think it need be wrong to lie.
So, you're saying that lying is conditionally immoral. Under what conditions is it immoral to lie, and why is it immoral to lie under those conditions? By the way, this is the same question, but you seem to be a bit difficult to coral into actually addressing the question. Why is it ever immoral to lie?

OK I can take a hint. Let’s move on.

How about it is wrong to lie if it hurts those I care about? Because that would upset me.
Any thoughts on how it could hurt them? Are there only subjective harms, like "I'm disappointed that you lied to me", or are there also objective harms, like "You told me you filled the gas tank, but I ran out of gas and had to call for assistance and was late for my meeting and lost my job".

Wossname
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Wossname » November 19th, 2020, 4:10 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 4:05 pm
Marvin_Edwards » 3 minutes ago

How about it is wrong to lie if it hurts those I care about? Because that would upset me.
Any thoughts on how it could hurt them? Are there only subjective harms, like "I'm disappointed that you lied to me", or are there also objective harms, like "You told me you filled the gas tank, but I ran out of gas and had to call for assistance and was late for my meeting and lost my job".

Well if it hurts them it hurts me.

So that would be bad.

Gertie
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Gertie » November 19th, 2020, 5:17 pm

Marvin
I disagree with your assertion that non-conscious living organisms have no interest or stake or are impacted in any way by outcomes.I disagree with your assertion that non-conscious living organisms have no interest or stake or are impacted in any way by outcomes. The carrot, and every other living organism, is positively affected by events that enhance its ability to survive, thrive, and reproduce, and is negatively affected by events that impair its ability to survive, thrive, and reproduce. To me this seems a rather obvious fact of nature.
Fact - everything requires particular conditions to be met in order to Function in particular ways. Crystals, toasters, carrots, humans, etc.

Make your argument for why this has Moral implications for carrots surviving, thriving and reproducing. How Oughts are derived, and who or what these Oughts apply to.

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards » November 19th, 2020, 6:44 pm

Wossname wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 4:10 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 4:05 pm
Marvin_Edwards » 3 minutes ago

How about it is wrong to lie if it hurts those I care about? Because that would upset me.
Any thoughts on how it could hurt them? Are there only subjective harms, like "I'm disappointed that you lied to me", or are there also objective harms, like "You told me you filled the gas tank, but I ran out of gas and had to call for assistance and was late for my meeting and lost my job".

Well if it hurts them it hurts me.

So that would be bad.
Knowing the truth enables us to deal effectively with reality. For example, a blind person in a new room may stumble into or over things. If you tell the blind person, "Stop, there is a staircase in front of you", they can avoid a bad fall. But if you lie to them, and say, "Take five steps forward" they could fall and seriously injure or kill themselves. That's an unnecessary harm.

So, we have an ethical (and often a legal) rule against lying to prevent unnecessary harms (morality seeks the best good and least harm for everyone).

On the other hand, telling someone who is overweight "You look good tonight" instead of saying, "You are still fat tonight", is excused when it avoids an unnecessary harm.

And, telling the Nazis at the door "There are no Jews here" when you know Anne Frank and her family are living in the attic is justified because it avoids an unnecessary harm.

The reason someone is hurt by your lie is that it means they cannot trust you to tell them the truth, and that they may be injured by you in the future by a lie. The reason that you are hurt is twofold. You may have empathy with their hurt, because you too could be unnecessarily harmed by a lie in the future. And second, if you have a conscience, then it will make you feel guilt and blame until you learn that lying is a harmful thing to do. Once you learn that lesson, you can discharge those feelings.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station » November 19th, 2020, 7:28 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 1:27 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 9:06 am


??? What I've been asking you for is a specific example re claims about "morality is based on x." I'm asking for an example where you're explaining how "It's morally permissible to murder" or whatever moral stance you'd like to pick, would be based on x, per your claim; in other words, an example showing how it supposedly works in a specific instance (of your choosing). You know this, and you just said that you gave many examples. So I'm confirming that you're saying that you gave many (specific) examples.
So, do either of you guys want to weigh-in on the question "Why is lying morally wrong?".
I thought you knew my view already. I'm basically an emotivist. Something is right or wrong to a particular individual (so that the same thing can be morally permissible to one individual and morally impermissible to another, where neither is correct, because there's nothing to get correct), and the ultimate reason for that, at least for "root" or foundational moral stances, is simply that the individual is effectively "yaying" or "booing" the behavior in question, which they're doing because of dispositions they have/how their particular brain happens to be structured and happens to function. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a "nature-only" situation as opposed to nurture, but the nurture aspects aren't going to come down to reasoning or anything like that (again, for "root" or "foundational" moral stances for that individual). The nurture aspects are going to come down with the way environmental factors, including things like nutrition, interact with the development and functioning of that individual's brain.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station » November 19th, 2020, 7:29 pm

Oops, I should have said above "where neither is correct OR incorrect" . . .

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards » November 19th, 2020, 7:32 pm

Gertie wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 5:17 pm
Marvin
I disagree with your assertion that non-conscious living organisms have no interest or stake or are impacted in any way by outcomes.I disagree with your assertion that non-conscious living organisms have no interest or stake or are impacted in any way by outcomes. The carrot, and every other living organism, is positively affected by events that enhance its ability to survive, thrive, and reproduce, and is negatively affected by events that impair its ability to survive, thrive, and reproduce. To me this seems a rather obvious fact of nature.
Fact - everything requires particular conditions to be met in order to Function in particular ways. Crystals, toasters, carrots, humans, etc.

Make your argument for why this has Moral implications for carrots surviving, thriving and reproducing. How Oughts are derived, and who or what these Oughts apply to.
I'm happy to make the argument again, but please don't complain that I am merely repeating myself when satisfying your request.

Morality is species specific. What we "ought to do" and "ought not do" to other members of our species is originally derived from our real needs. For the sake of argument, I assume Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is a sufficient working analysis of the real needs of human beings. Our needs motivate us to satisfy them, and our needs at lower levels of the pyramid must be sufficiently satisfied before we attempt to satisfy needs at the next higher level.

In addition to the real needs of individual persons (covered by Maslow), there are real needs of societies (e.g., rules for cooperation), and real needs of species (e.g., less global warming).

We call something "good" if it satisfies a real need we have as an individual, as a society, or as a species. We call something "bad" if it unnecessarily harms the individual, the society, or the species.

Morality seeks the best good and least harm for everyone (of our species). A "moral person" shares that goal, and derives what they ought to do and ought not do according to rules and courses of action consistent with that goal.

To the degree that benefits (good's) and harms (bad's) can be objectively measured (and accurately predicted), our moral judgements can also be considered objective, because the object of our quest (best good and least harm for everyone) can be objectively calculated.

Because morality is species specific, the value of other species is a matter of their value to us, that is, how they help or hurt our ability to satisfy our own needs as individuals, as a society, or as a species.

If the species has value to us, as do carrots and cats, we tend to preserve that value by caring for that specie's real needs. And their real needs inform us as to what is objectively good or bad for them. The value we assign to the carrot is temporary. We care for the carrots only until they have grown large enough to eat. We care for the cats usually until they die.

If the species is considered harmful to us, like viruses, bacteria, mosquitoes, etc., then we attempt to prevent that harm, either locally (the mosquito) or universally (like the polio, measles, and covid-19 viruses).

The individuals of every species share a common biological goal: to survive, thrive, and reproduce. We observe behaviors in every species that can be explained by this model. And it is also found at the lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy regarding human motivation. The higher levels of Maslow's Hierarchy sit upon this foundational level.

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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Count Lucanor » November 19th, 2020, 9:58 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 1:27 pm
So, do either of you guys want to weigh-in on the question "Why is lying morally wrong?".
That's a loaded question. Lying can be morally wrong sometimes and some other times it isn't, it depends on the context. So the question should be: "when is lying morally wrong?".

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Jack D Ripper
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Jack D Ripper » November 19th, 2020, 10:09 pm

Count Lucanor wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 9:58 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 1:27 pm
So, do either of you guys want to weigh-in on the question "Why is lying morally wrong?".
That's a loaded question. Lying can be morally wrong sometimes and some other times it isn't, it depends on the context. So the question should be: "when is lying morally wrong?".
It does not matter. He is just playing games.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards » November 19th, 2020, 10:51 pm

Jack D Ripper wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 10:09 pm
Count Lucanor wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 9:58 pm

That's a loaded question. Lying can be morally wrong sometimes and some other times it isn't, it depends on the context. So the question should be: "when is lying morally wrong?".
It does not matter. He is just playing games.
I asked you first, Jack, but you remained silent. Have you figured out yet that all moral arguments ultimately come down to the criteria of the best good and least harm for everyone?

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Marvin_Edwards » November 20th, 2020, 12:16 am

Count Lucanor wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 9:58 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 1:27 pm
So, do either of you guys want to weigh-in on the question "Why is lying morally wrong?".
That's a loaded question. Lying can be morally wrong sometimes and some other times it isn't, it depends on the context. So the question should be: "when is lying morally wrong?".
When is lying morally wrong?

Wossname
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Wossname » November 20th, 2020, 4:14 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 6:44 pm
Marvin_Edwards » Yesterday, 10:44 pm

The reason someone is hurt by your lie is that it means they cannot trust you to tell them the truth, and that they may be injured by you in the future by a lie. The reason that you are hurt is twofold. You may have empathy with their hurt, because you too could be unnecessarily harmed by a lie in the future. And second, if you have a conscience, then it will make you feel guilt and blame until you learn that lying is a harmful thing to do. Once you learn that lesson, you can discharge those feelings.

What if I hate their guts, don’t care if they don’t trust me, am glad they are hurt, feel no guilt about it and would hurt them some more if I could?

You keep repeating the same message while ignoring all criticism of it.

You are welcome to your views of course. But if you will not address criticisms or engage properly with the argument I suspect others will continue to find them unconvincing.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station » November 20th, 2020, 7:42 am

Count Lucanor wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 9:58 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 1:27 pm
So, do either of you guys want to weigh-in on the question "Why is lying morally wrong?".
That's a loaded question. Lying can be morally wrong sometimes and some other times it isn't, it depends on the context. So the question should be: "when is lying morally wrong?".
What I answered above is why does it have the moral status it has to a given individual.

Personally I don't at all think that lying is categorically morally wrong, but that doesn't matter for answering what makes it morally wrong to people who do feel it's morally wrong.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Morality is based on desire.

Post by Terrapin Station » November 20th, 2020, 7:45 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 10:51 pm
Jack D Ripper wrote:
November 19th, 2020, 10:09 pm


It does not matter. He is just playing games.
I asked you first, Jack, but you remained silent. Have you figured out yet that all moral arguments ultimately come down to the criteria of the best good and least harm for everyone?
That's obviously not my view as I explained above, but you're simply refraining from commenting on my explanation. I suppose maybe you think it's not worth bothering to comment on, since our views are not going to be reconcilable?

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