Why do we value human life?
-
- Posts: 147
- Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am
Why do we value human life?
I believe that very broadly, we can say that human life has value purely on its own, or if we value human life because we have a natural instinct for self preservation.
This has always interested me, because it seems that the overwhelming amount of substantive and logical evidence pushes us towards believing that our value is an illusion created by survival instincts, but I feel an irresistible pull to believe that human life has its own innate value.
My loose collection of arguments for believing this intuition is as follows
Possibility of God/Creator: If there is a God (fairly, because I do believe in God, this argument is biased) I think it follows in most conceptions and is logical to me that human life has innate value.
Human moral reasoning: This argument I believe is only persuasive if one DOES NOT believe in God/creator. As I see it
-Humans are the highest reasoning beings that exist (outside of the not-believed in God)
-Therefore, we are masters of creation, the highest type of being (this assumes a very high value of reason)
-Highest type of reason gives us the highest moral reasoning
Therefore,
-Humans are the highest morally reasoning beings
Being the highest morally reasoning beings sounds like its pretty innately valuable.
Several holes in this argument, assumption of high value of morality and reason
also why should anyone other than humans give a damn about all of this morality stuff, doesnt seem to bother rocks if theres war crimes
Interested to hear anyone's thoughts and questions
-
- Posts: 10339
- Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Re: Why do we value human life?
If the value we place on human life stemmed from the simple fact that we are human and therefore have a natural tendency to want to propagate our own genetic material (what you've referred to as survival instinct) why would that make it an illusion? That word, and similar words such as "mirage", often seem to be used when a phenomenon has an underlying mechanism that we might not have expected it to have, or perhaps don't like the idea of it having. But proposing the underlying mechanism for a phenomenon doesn't make it an illusion.HJCarden wrote:...because it seems that the overwhelming amount of substantive and logical evidence pushes us towards believing that our value is an illusion created by survival instincts...
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 6227
- Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
- Location: NYC Man
Re: Why do we value human life?
But yeah, I'm sure that valuing one's own species tends to be the case because there was an evolutionary advantage to that. Many creatures need to protect enough of their own species at least to the point of reproduction in order for the species in question to survive, and humans are certainly one of those sorts of creatures. We're long down an evolutionary chain where individuals can not survive on their own, without some sort of protection/nurturing, to a reproduction stage.
-
- Posts: 147
- Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am
Re: Why do we value human life?
So would you suspect that if we were somehow able to revert to a pre-societal (Hobbes/Rousseau -esque state of nature) that we would have a weaker instinct to assume an innate value for human life? In other words, has our interdependence as a species increased out egotistical idea of human value?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 10:57 am But yeah, I'm sure that valuing one's own species tends to be the case because there was an evolutionary advantage to that. Many creatures need to protect enough of their own species at least to the point of reproduction in order for the species in question to survive, and humans are certainly one of those sorts of creatures. We're long down an evolutionary chain where individuals can not survive on their own, without some sort of protection/nurturing, to a reproduction stage.
-
- Posts: 147
- Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am
Re: Why do we value human life?
You are correct, "Illusion" is probably not the best word here. What I was intending to convey is the possibility that there is nothing grounding innate feelings of human worth, and that these feelings have an entirely biological basis.Steve3007 wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 6:07 am I suspect some other people will pick out various parts of your OP to analyze/critique, but I'll pick just this for now:If the value we place on human life stemmed from the simple fact that we are human and therefore have a natural tendency to want to propagate our own genetic material (what you've referred to as survival instinct) why would that make it an illusion?HJCarden wrote:...because it seems that the overwhelming amount of substantive and logical evidence pushes us towards believing that our value is an illusion created by survival instincts...
- Marvin_Edwards
- Posts: 1106
- Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: William James
- Contact:
Re: Why do we value human life?
HJCarden wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 12:26 am ...
This has always interested me, because it seems that the overwhelming amount of substantive and logical evidence pushes us towards believing that our value is an illusion created by survival instincts, but I feel an irresistible pull to believe that human life has its own innate value. ...
If our value is innate in our biology, then it is not an illusion, but an empirical actuality.
- Marvin_Edwards
- Posts: 1106
- Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: William James
- Contact:
Re: Why do we value human life?
From the point of view of any biological organism, its life has value. The value does not come from higher intelligence, or any intelligence at all.HJCarden wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 1:05 pmYou are correct, "Illusion" is probably not the best word here. What I was intending to convey is the possibility that there is nothing grounding innate feelings of human worth, and that these feelings have an entirely biological basis.Steve3007 wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 6:07 am I suspect some other people will pick out various parts of your OP to analyze/critique, but I'll pick just this for now:
If the value we place on human life stemmed from the simple fact that we are human and therefore have a natural tendency to want to propagate our own genetic material (what you've referred to as survival instinct) why would that make it an illusion?
- Jack D Ripper
- Posts: 610
- Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
- Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
- Contact:
Re: Why do we value human life?
HJCarden wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 12:26 am Not an original topic, I know theres lots of work out there about this already, but interested in hearing some new thoughts about this.
I believe that very broadly, we can say that human life has value purely on its own, or if we value human life because we have a natural instinct for self preservation.
This has always interested me, because it seems that the overwhelming amount of substantive and logical evidence pushes us towards believing that our value is an illusion created by survival instincts, but I feel an irresistible pull to believe that human life has its own innate value.
My loose collection of arguments for believing this intuition is as follows
Possibility of God/Creator: If there is a God (fairly, because I do believe in God, this argument is biased) I think it follows in most conceptions and is logical to me that human life has innate value.
Human moral reasoning: This argument I believe is only persuasive if one DOES NOT believe in God/creator. As I see it
-Humans are the highest reasoning beings that exist (outside of the not-believed in God)
-Therefore, we are masters of creation, the highest type of being (this assumes a very high value of reason)
-Highest type of reason gives us the highest moral reasoning
Therefore,
-Humans are the highest morally reasoning beings
Being the highest morally reasoning beings sounds like its pretty innately valuable.
Several holes in this argument, assumption of high value of morality and reason
also why should anyone other than humans give a damn about all of this morality stuff, doesnt seem to bother rocks if theres war crimes
Interested to hear anyone's thoughts and questions
Okay. There is no god. That is just a bunch of primitive superstitious twaddle. When it comes to religion, people believe all sorts of nonsense that they would not believe in their ordinary lives. Think, for example, of the virgin birth in traditional Christianity. If I told you that my wife was a virgin when we married, and that she was also pregnant, and I knew she was a virgin because an angel told me this in a dream, what would you think of this? Almost no Christian is stupid enough to believe the stories of Christianity if brought into the modern world, but they are pathetically stupid when they look into the distant past. (Also, if there were a god like in the Bible, then people obviously would be of little importance; think of the flood killing everyone but Noah and his family. I can give you more Biblical references if you need them. If the Bible is right, then human life is pretty worthless.)
As for valuing human life, that is due to self-importance and delusions of grandeur.
"... the life of man is of no greater importance to the universe than that of an oyster."
https://oll.libertyfund.org/title/hume- ... ed#preview
Humans regarding themselves as the "highest" beings on the planet is just egotism. By human standards, humans are the highest. Big **** deal.
Of course, people value people because they are people. It is just like you valuing your own personal situation more than you care about whatever beings there might be in the solar system of Alpha Centauri.
People valuing people just means that people care about people. It is nothing more than that.
One other point regarding this bit:
You are showing your religious prejudice in your discussion of what would be the case without there being a god. If there is no god, there is no creator, and consequently there is no creation. So the last word that I quote there is very wrong.
- LuckyR
- Moderator
- Posts: 7984
- Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am
Re: Why do we value human life?
The latter is simply self self importance. The former depends on who is placing the value. As stated if humans place the value, it will be high. If a strept bacteria places it, it is very low.
Consider the question if there was a smarter and stronger species that shared space on earth with us.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8380
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Why do we value human life?
I too feel that human life has innate value; I think it's very common among us. But, for myself, I feel that limiting this view to human life, instead of all life, warps the subject into something incomplete, and maybe even damaged. But that's just me....HJCarden wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 12:26 am I believe that very broadly, we can say that human life has value purely on its own, or if we value human life because we have a natural instinct for self preservation. This has always interested me, because it seems that the overwhelming amount of substantive and logical evidence pushes us towards believing that our value is an illusion created by survival instincts, but I feel an irresistible pull to believe that human life has its own innate value.
I'm not convinced that belief in God is sufficient to assign innate value to our lives. But it may well be a factor in the personal beliefs of many.
I confess there is no part of the above argument that appeals to me, or that I would feel happy defending. It seems to say "We look at ourselves, and see that we're great; we are the best there is. Therefore our lives have value." I see no merit in this position.HJCarden wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 12:26 am Human moral reasoning: This argument I believe is only persuasive if one DOES NOT believe in God/creator. As I see it
-Humans are the highest reasoning beings that exist (outside of the not-believed in God)
-Therefore, we are masters of creation, the highest type of being (this assumes a very high value of reason)
-Highest type of reason gives us the highest moral reasoning
Therefore,
-Humans are the highest morally reasoning beings
Being the highest morally reasoning beings sounds like its pretty innately valuable.
"Who cares, wins"
-
- Posts: 147
- Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am
Re: Why do we value human life?
From the perspective of most organisms, I would agree with you. However, as humans, our higher intelligence has at the very least convinced some of us that there is some other source of value for our lives. Now I believe the question is if this is intuition leads to truth, or is just a product of evolutionary forces.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 9:57 pmFrom the point of view of any biological organism, its life has value. The value does not come from higher intelligence, or any intelligence at all.
-
- Posts: 147
- Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am
Re: Why do we value human life?
As for the pragmatic elements of Christianity, of course they seem foolish if you do not believe in God, but IF there is a creator of the universe, Id suspect that this creator could pull a few strings to create a virgin birth if so needed.Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 10:25 pm
Okay. There is no god. That is just a bunch of primitive superstitious twaddle. When it comes to religion, people believe all sorts of nonsense that they would not believe in their ordinary lives. Think, for example, of the virgin birth in traditional Christianity. If I told you that my wife was a virgin when we married, and that she was also pregnant, and I knew she was a virgin because an angel told me this in a dream, what would you think of this? Almost no Christian is stupid enough to believe the stories of Christianity if brought into the modern world, but they are pathetically stupid when they look into the distant past. (Also, if there were a god like in the Bible, then people obviously would be of little importance; think of the flood killing everyone but Noah and his family. I can give you more Biblical references if you need them. If the Bible is right, then human life is pretty worthless.)
Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 10:25 pm
As for valuing human life, that is due to self-importance and delusions of grandeur.
"... the life of man is of no greater importance to the universe than that of an oyster."
Humans regarding themselves as the "highest" beings on the planet is just egotism. By human standards, humans are the highest. Big **** deal.
Of course, people value people because they are people. It is just like you valuing your own personal situation more than you care about whatever beings there might be in the solar system of Alpha Centauri.
People valuing people just means that people care about people. It is nothing more than that.
Yes by human standards we are a pretty big deal. We are the best reasoning form of life that we have observed. We have discovered vast quantities of information and explored away from our home planet. I'm not saying that theres nothing else that COULD do what humans do, but if you ask me its nothing to sneeze at, my intuition stems from how impressive I consider our reasoning capabilites+their products to be.
Fair, this wording is a bit off. Substitute "observable universe", and I believe the argument is not affected.Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 10:25 pm
One other point regarding this bit:
You are showing your religious prejudice in your discussion of what would be the case without there being a god. If there is no god, there is no creator, and consequently there is no creation. So the last word that I quote there is very wrong.
-
- Posts: 147
- Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am
Re: Why do we value human life?
Very helpful distinction! It seems to me that while us and bacteria might have some arguments about this, we have certain faculties that have proven very effective in categorizing and making sense of the universe. I believe that through moral reasoning we have somewhat freed ourselves from the shackles of purely evolutionary forces. Looking at human history, and the improvements we have made as a species, leads me to believe that there is great value to our rational faculties.LuckyR wrote: ↑November 25th, 2020, 3:31 am There are two related yet separate questions: is human life valuable? And why do humans value human life?
The latter is simply self self importance. The former depends on who is placing the value. As stated if humans place the value, it will be high. If a strept bacteria places it, it is very low.
Consider the question if there was a smarter and stronger species that shared space on earth with us.
As for the latter, it ties into some of my thoughts on this. Its very obvious that we are able to conjure great ideas of self importance about ourselves (the Kardashians are shining examples of this). However, I questions whether this is just the work of our own minds, or are we grasping at something real when we place value upon ourselves?
Id liken this to trying to feel along the wall in the dark for a lightswitch. We're in a dark room, which gives us the idea that theres a light switch. Pushing in the right direction (looking at what separates us from other life forms), we find a wall and start to feel along it. Once we find that switch, turn it on and our entire vision will be illuminated.
-
- Posts: 147
- Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am
Re: Why do we value human life?
Would you then agree with the statement that if we looked at all life and had to rank its worth, that human life would be the most valuable out of all? Not from an evolutionary perspective (we couldn't get here without bacteria, thats fair) but from what we've been able to accomplish in such a short time on this planet.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 25th, 2020, 8:14 amI too feel that human life has innate value; I think it's very common among us. But, for myself, I feel that limiting this view to human life, instead of all life, warps the subject into something incomplete, and maybe even damaged. But that's just me....HJCarden wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 12:26 am I believe that very broadly, we can say that human life has value purely on its own, or if we value human life because we have a natural instinct for self preservation. This has always interested me, because it seems that the overwhelming amount of substantive and logical evidence pushes us towards believing that our value is an illusion created by survival instincts, but I feel an irresistible pull to believe that human life has its own innate value.
So if there is a God, and we are created by this God, what conception of this God do you believe would leave our value up to question? I can think of some ideas, but i'd like to hear yours.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 25th, 2020, 8:14 amI'm not convinced that belief in God is sufficient to assign innate value to our lives. But it may well be a factor in the personal beliefs of many.
I push back against this portrayal of my argument, in reference to my previous points about why we can (with what I believe to be some level of objectivity) state that humans actually are pretty impressive, and that could ascribe us special value.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑November 25th, 2020, 8:14 amI confess there is no part of the above argument that appeals to me, or that I would feel happy defending. It seems to say "We look at ourselves, and see that we're great; we are the best there is. Therefore our lives have value." I see no merit in this position.HJCarden wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 12:26 am Human moral reasoning: This argument I believe is only persuasive if one DOES NOT believe in God/creator. As I see it
-Humans are the highest reasoning beings that exist (outside of the not-believed in God)
-Therefore, we are masters of creation, the highest type of being (this assumes a very high value of reason)
-Highest type of reason gives us the highest moral reasoning
Therefore,
-Humans are the highest morally reasoning beings
Being the highest morally reasoning beings sounds like its pretty innately valuable.
- Jack D Ripper
- Posts: 610
- Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
- Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
- Contact:
Re: Why do we value human life?
HJCarden wrote: ↑November 25th, 2020, 12:27 pmAs for the pragmatic elements of Christianity, of course they seem foolish if you do not believe in God, but IF there is a creator of the universe, Id suspect that this creator could pull a few strings to create a virgin birth if so needed.Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 10:25 pm
Okay. There is no god. That is just a bunch of primitive superstitious twaddle. When it comes to religion, people believe all sorts of nonsense that they would not believe in their ordinary lives. Think, for example, of the virgin birth in traditional Christianity. If I told you that my wife was a virgin when we married, and that she was also pregnant, and I knew she was a virgin because an angel told me this in a dream, what would you think of this? Almost no Christian is stupid enough to believe the stories of Christianity if brought into the modern world, but they are pathetically stupid when they look into the distant past. (Also, if there were a god like in the Bible, then people obviously would be of little importance; think of the flood killing everyone but Noah and his family. I can give you more Biblical references if you need them. If the Bible is right, then human life is pretty worthless.)
You are missing the point. Do you have any temptation to believe the story of my wife and an angel telling me in a dream that she was a virgin? If not, do you believe that god is no longer powerful enough to do this?
It is not simply a question of whether a god could or could not do a thing. There is the all important issue of what you have reason to believe and what you don't have reason to believe.
Do you believe the miracles of Islam? If not, why not? Do you not believe that god is powerful enough to do those things?
HJCarden wrote: ↑November 25th, 2020, 12:27 pmJack D Ripper wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 10:25 pm
As for valuing human life, that is due to self-importance and delusions of grandeur.
"... the life of man is of no greater importance to the universe than that of an oyster."
Humans regarding themselves as the "highest" beings on the planet is just egotism. By human standards, humans are the highest. Big **** deal.
Of course, people value people because they are people. It is just like you valuing your own personal situation more than you care about whatever beings there might be in the solar system of Alpha Centauri.
People valuing people just means that people care about people. It is nothing more than that.
Yes by human standards we are a pretty big deal. We are the best reasoning form of life that we have observed.
So if by platypus standards, the duck-billed platypus is the best reasoning form of life that has been observed, would that impress you?
HJCarden wrote: ↑November 25th, 2020, 12:27 pm We have discovered vast quantities of information and explored away from our home planet. I'm not saying that theres nothing else that COULD do what humans do, but if you ask me its nothing to sneeze at, my intuition stems from how impressive I consider our reasoning capabilites+their products to be.
Your human intuition tells you that humans are smart. And if the intuition of the platypus is that the platypus is the smartest, does that make the platypus the smartest?
The argument is still the same as if a platypus thought that the platypus was the smartest and concluded that the platypus is what has innate value, not humans. It is just a different animal being prejudiced in its own favor.HJCarden wrote: ↑November 25th, 2020, 12:27 pmFair, this wording is a bit off. Substitute "observable universe", and I believe the argument is not affected.Jack D Ripper wrote: ↑November 24th, 2020, 10:25 pm
One other point regarding this bit:
You are showing your religious prejudice in your discussion of what would be the case without there being a god. If there is no god, there is no creator, and consequently there is no creation. So the last word that I quote there is very wrong.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023