How to make peace with might makes right?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Ecurb wrote: December 4th, 2020, 11:53 am Oh, come on! Since when does anyne consider the Conquistadors moral paragons?
The Pope and all his cardinals.

The Catholics had not even bothered to apologise until this centry and then only piecemeal.
I am given to understand and request by the Mexican government for an apology for the centuries of oppresstion is still outstanding.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Belindi »

Pattern Chaser wrote:
I cannot see how strength, of itself, has a moral value. The use of strength, fair enough. But strength? So is intelligence good? How about stickiness or acidity? Blue? Green? Metal? Can/do all of these things have a moral value of themselves? I can't see it.
Strength relates to degree on a strength---weakness (or turgid---diffuse) continuum. Strength also relates to absolute kinetic or potential strength.

The Heroic ethic is historical and therefore socially constructed.

My point is so general it is not a lot of use. My point is existence itself is better than non-existence. Existence itself includes relative values (continuums) and also absolute values (all or nothings).Existence itself also includes social reality and notions that people have about absolute reality. I think my point is generally Stoical.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Ecurb »

baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 6:17 am
The Conquistadors paved the way for the Catholic colonization. To this day, Latin America is ruled by Catholicism.

Try to put yourself in the shoes of the native American people whom the European conquerors defeated. Not just those in Latin America, but also those in Northern America.

As in the case of Aztecs, there are ways to blame the defeated for their defeat. This can be applied to the native Americans in the North, saying they were defeated because they were living a nomadic lifestyle, or refused to use firearms for too long, or whatever.
But this kind of blaming the defeated supports precisely the maxim that might makes right....

DEAR CONQUERED PEOPLES,
The history of humanity is one of constant conflict and competition for resources like land, food, water, and women.
You whine about the fact that Europeans were and are better at this contest than any other race of men in the world.
You losers want us to regret being better at conquest and exploration than you were.
You want apologies and reparations from people who were stronger and smarter than you, people who unequivocally won.
WE AREN'T SORRY AND WE OWE YOU NOTHING. DEAL WITH IT.

https://pics.me.me/ore-em-dear-conquere ... 588725.png
How do you object to that?
This post is utterly irrelevant to my point, which was that Cortez does not demonstrate that might makes right. He wasn't "mighty"; the Aztecs were. He defeated them because he was perceived (by his Native allies, correctly or incorrectly) as being in the "right". No doubt the Conquistadors did not honor this trust (although they were probably still more humane than the Aztecs, faint praise though that might be).

Regarding apologies: It's easy to apologize for things for which one is not responsible; it's more difficult admit blame for those things for which one is responsible.

A national apology for evil practices seems at first, admirable. Certainly it provides a pleasant contrast to national self-righteousness; to those who proclaim our political system the best ever devised, even the best possible.

The danger of national apology is just this: since the conquistadors are long dead, and since we are not Catholics, we would be repenting that which we have in no sense done. This may seem a harmless error; we so often fail to apologize for our real sins that apologizing for imaginary sins appears almost admirable.

However, apologizing for the sins of our ancestors holds a certain sinister charm. It encourages us to avoid the bitter task of apologizing for our own mistakes, and turns us to the congenial one of bewailing and denouncing the sins of others.

This is an escape from responsibility. It leads us to Wordsworth’s realm
Where passions have the privilege to work
And never hear the sound of their own names.

It is, indeed, a form of moral cowardice to apologize loudly for our ancestors, while failing to repent those evils of which we are ourselves guilty.

p.s. I'll grant that this doesn't apply to the Catholic Church which proclaims itself eternal and infallible.
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by baker »

Ecurb wrote: December 5th, 2020, 10:54 amThis post is utterly irrelevant to my point,
I'd still like you to reply to my questions to you:


When someone can and does take away your posessions, your health, members of your family, and has made clear that they are willing and able to take away your life -- how are you _not_ going to consider them superior to yourself?

And if they have defeated in you in a practical sense, how can you still think they have not defeated you morally?
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by baker »

Ecurb wrote: December 5th, 2020, 10:54 am/.../
p.s. I'll grant that this doesn't apply to the Catholic Church which proclaims itself eternal and infallible.
And who knows why the RCC apologizes at all. It seems it has nothing to do with easing the situation of the wronged nor repairing the relationships with them, which is what an apology normally aims to achieve.

Even in more recent matters, where the Catholic perpetrators and victims are still alive, like with the child abuse scandals and the abuse of women, it's not clear why the RCC apologizes, given that they are not actually willing to enter into some kind of mediation process where both sides could speak and hear eachother.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Ecurb »

baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 10:58 am
I'd still like you to reply to my questions to you:


When someone can and does take away your posessions, your health, members of your family, and has made clear that they are willing and able to take away your life -- how are you _not_ going to consider them superior to yourself?

And if they have defeated in you in a practical sense, how can you still think they have not defeated you morally?
I didn't answer the question because it's ridiculous. Have you never heard of the Christian martyrs, headed off to the arena to be eaten by lions? Did they believe they had been "defeated morally"?
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by baker »

Ecurb wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:12 amI didn't answer the question because it's ridiculous. Have you never heard of the Christian martyrs, headed off to the arena to be eaten by lions? Did they believe they had been "defeated morally"?
Sure, but they believed they had God on their side. Similarly those who believe in karma can hold firm in the face of abuse.

But a person who has no such metaphysical belief or who doesn't have the resources for revenge is vulnerable in the face of injustice and violence.

Perhaps this vulnerability can be mitigated by enough egotism/narcissism. But again, lacking those, what options does a person have?
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by baker »

Also: Stoicism (at least the ancient one) has a metaphysical foundation, namely, the tenet that the world is rationally organized to a good end.
If one believes that, then it's easy to make sense of life's challenges.
baker
Posts: 608
Joined: November 28th, 2020, 6:55 am

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by baker »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 4th, 2020, 9:28 amBut how can you justify saying that strength itself is morally good, as you did?
It seems self-evident.
In the absence of some metaphysical foundation, brute force (and by implication, coercion, intimidation) is the strongest thing there is, and as such, morally good.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Sculptor1 »

baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 12:13 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: December 4th, 2020, 9:28 amBut how can you justify saying that strength itself is morally good, as you did?
It seems self-evident.
In the absence of some metaphysical foundation, brute force (and by implication, coercion, intimidation) is the strongest thing there is, and as such, morally good.
Most moral claim seem "self evident", but you have to ask why?
You reasons are odd to say the least, and at best circular.
You seem to be saying strength is good because it is strong.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Belindi »

baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 10:58 am
Ecurb wrote: December 5th, 2020, 10:54 amThis post is utterly irrelevant to my point,
I'd still like you to reply to my questions to you:


When someone can and does take away your posessions, your health, members of your family, and has made clear that they are willing and able to take away your life -- how are you _not_ going to consider them superior to yourself?

And if they have defeated in you in a practical sense, how can you still think they have not defeated you morally?
They have defeated your hopes but they can't defeat your past existence. There is nothing that having existed did not necessarily exist. Whether your life be long or short , recorded or forgotten, your life will affect future events.
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 6:17 am
Ecurb wrote: December 4th, 2020, 11:53 amOh, come on! Since when does anyne consider the Conquistadors moral paragons?

The Conquistadors paved the way for the Catholic colonization. To this day, Latin America is ruled by Catholicism.

Try to put yourself in the shoes of the native American people whom the European conquerors defeated. Not just those in Latin America, but also those in Northern America.

As in the case of Aztecs, there are ways to blame the defeated for their defeat. This can be applied to the native Americans in the North, saying they were defeated because they were living a nomadic lifestyle, or refused to use firearms for too long, or whatever.
But this kind of blaming the defeated supports precisely the maxim that might makes right.


When someone can and does take away your posessions, your health, members of your family, and has made clear that they are willing and able to take away your life -- how are you _not_ going to consider them superior to yourself?

And if they have defeated in you in a practical sense, how can you still think they have not defeated you morally?


There's an internet meme that says:
DEAR CONQUERED PEOPLES,
The history of humanity is one of constant conflict and competition for resources like land, food, water, and women.
You whine about the fact that Europeans were and are better at this contest than any other race of men in the world.
You losers want us to regret being better at conquest and exploration than you were.
You want apologies and reparations from people who were stronger and smarter than you, people who unequivocally won.
WE AREN'T SORRY AND WE OWE YOU NOTHING. DEAL WITH IT.

https://pics.me.me/ore-em-dear-conquere ... 588725.png
How do you object to that?

They were superior in some way. Anyone who wins a fight is better in some way. They are better at fighting, or were better at fighting in that particular instance. But that does not make them morally better.

As for the outcome of the descendants being Catholic, that is a matter of indoctrination of the young. That is something the victors imposed upon those who lost, as a method of control for the future. The descendants conformed more to what the victors wanted as a result of that religion being imposed upon them. And it has affected the moral beliefs of those descendants.


What you appear to be doing is confusing what is with what ought to be. That the stronger is imposing on others does not mean that the stronger ought to impose on others. Indeed, if the word "ought" meant the same thing as "is", then it would be a pointless word. It means something different from what the word "is" means. There are a variety of different theories about it, from subjective theories in which it is based on feelings, to objective theories that claim that it is based on something else in the universe (though what that is varies, and is problematic for a variety of reasons that don't matter for the present point).


So, to your question:

"When someone can and does take away your posessions, your health, members of your family, and has made clear that they are willing and able to take away your life -- how are you _not_ going to consider them superior to yourself?"

Of course, the victors were superior in some way(s). The Europeans had better weapons and were more capable of defeating the Native Americans than the Native Americans were capable of defeating the Europeans. But that use of the term "better" does not imply anything whatsoever about morality or ethics.

That a cheetah is faster than a lion (average of each adult, in good health) means that a cheetah is better than a lion, as far as speed is concerned. It means nothing else than that, but it is a way in which the cheetah is better than a lion. Of course, the lion is stronger than the cheetah, so the lion is better than the cheetah in that way. But that "better" does not make it better in any other way; it just means that it is stronger. There is no moral dimension to either use of the term "better".


Getting back to "ought":
Oxford wrote:ought1

MODAL VERB (ought)

1 [with infinitive] Used to indicate duty or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.
‘they ought to respect the law’

1.1 Used to indicate a desirable or expected state.
‘he ought to be able to take the initiative’

1.2 Used to give or ask for advice.
‘you ought to go’

2 [with infinitive] Used to indicate something that is probable.
‘five minutes ought to be enough time’
https://www.lexico.com/definition/ought

Definition 1 is the one relevant to this. It should be clear that this is quite different from a description of what is the case.

Getting back to the title of this thread, might makes one able to do as one wills. But that has nothing whatever to do with right. That someone does something does not mean that that someone ought to have done that something.
Oxford wrote:right

ADJECTIVE

1 Morally good, justified, or acceptable.
https://www.lexico.com/definition/right


Might does not make one morally good, justified, or acceptable. So might does not make right.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:36 am
Ecurb wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:12 amI didn't answer the question because it's ridiculous. Have you never heard of the Christian martyrs, headed off to the arena to be eaten by lions? Did they believe they had been "defeated morally"?
Sure, but they believed they had God on their side. Similarly those who believe in karma can hold firm in the face of abuse.

But a person who has no such metaphysical belief or who doesn't have the resources for revenge is vulnerable in the face of injustice and violence.

Your position is self-contradictory. If might makes right, then the mighty screwing you over is not injustice and there is nothing wrong with what the mighty are doing to you. YOU have told us from the start that might makes right, so, according to YOU, they are right to **** you over. So, according to YOUR position, you should stop your whining because the world is exactly how it should be, with the mighty being right all of the time. According to YOU, they are right to do whatever the hell they want to do to you. So you are complaining about things being as they should be, according to YOUR standards of right and wrong.

You are not keeping a consistent position, which is why everyone knows you are absolutely wrong no matter what the truth is. The fact that you are complaining about what the mighty do shows that even you know your position is ********.

baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 11:36 am Perhaps this vulnerability can be mitigated by enough egotism/narcissism. But again, lacking those, what options does a person have?

You also are conflating two separate issues, of how to deal with the fact that the powerful can do what they want, and the issue of what is right and what is wrong.

One way to deal with the fact that the powerful can do what they want is to follow the advice of the stoics. Dealing with the world as it is, is not the same as saying that the world is as it should be. You seem to miss that point over and over in this thread.

And, as noted above, you do not keep your story straight. If might makes right, then the mighty are right to do as they do, and so you have no reason to complain about it. Yet you continually whine about it, because you know that your own position is a steaming pile of excrement that no reasonable person believes.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

This is primarily for everyone else reading this thread.
baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 6:17 am...
There's an internet meme that says:
DEAR CONQUERED PEOPLES,
The history of humanity is one of constant conflict and competition for resources like land, food, water, and women.
You whine about the fact that Europeans were and are better at this contest than any other race of men in the world.
You losers want us to regret being better at conquest and exploration than you were.
You want apologies and reparations from people who were stronger and smarter than you, people who unequivocally won.
WE AREN'T SORRY AND WE OWE YOU NOTHING. DEAL WITH IT.

https://pics.me.me/ore-em-dear-conquere ... 588725.png
How do you object to that?

That reads like what some whiny, inbred, white suprematist loser would write, who is afraid of losing his privileged position in life, because he has no skills or merit to warrant anything special for himself, vainly hoping that it will discourage others from challenging his privileged position.

A winner does not need to write such a thing. If he was not a dumbass with **** for brains, he would not need any special advantage or privilege over others. He would win on his own merit, and not rely on the past achievements of others. He isn't the one who "won" in the past, he is just some loser who wants to gain from the success of others.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8265
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: How to make peace with might makes right?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 4th, 2020, 9:28 amBut how can you justify saying that strength itself is morally good, as you did?
baker wrote: December 5th, 2020, 12:13 pm It seems self-evident.
In the absence of some metaphysical foundation, brute force (and by implication, coercion, intimidation) is the strongest thing there is, and as such, morally good.
Sculptor1 wrote: December 5th, 2020, 1:50 pm Most moral claim seem "self evident", but you have to ask why?
You reasons are odd to say the least, and at best circular.
You seem to be saying strength is good because it is strong.

Yes. Morality is the way we humans use to decide (i.e. judge) whether past or future actions (or behaviour...) were, or will be, right (as opposed to wrong). If it was "self-evident" there would be no judgement/decision. You do realise, don't you, that you have asserted that coercion and intimidation are morally right? I don't think many people would find this self-evident.

[ I say "right", not "good", to avoid confusion. Morality distiguishes right from wrong, not (directly) good from bad. Most of us would agree that being morally right is good, but that just introduces more confusion. Can we stick to "right" and "wrong", for the sake of clarity? ]
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021