Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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Steve3007
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Steve3007 »

Terrapin Station wrote:That's no different from the ignorant crap that had music, video games, etc. blamed for all sorts of behavior.
In your view, does "copycat crime" ever genuinely happen? I would guess you'd answer no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_c ... s%20crime.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Steve3007 wrote: January 28th, 2021, 11:03 am
Terrapin Station wrote:That's no different from the ignorant crap that had music, video games, etc. blamed for all sorts of behavior.
In your view, does "copycat crime" ever genuinely happen? I would guess you'd answer no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_c ... s%20crime.
Sure, people can decide to emulate someone else's crime, but you can't blame the initial crime for the copycat crime. It was the copycat's decision to emulate the crime. In no way did the original crime MAKE the person emulate the crime, and the vast majority of people who were familiar with the original crime didn't emulate it. If the original crime had the sort of power/influence to be culpable for the copycat, then it would be inexplicable why most people familiar with it do not emulate it.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by LuckyR »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 28th, 2021, 2:17 pm
Steve3007 wrote: January 28th, 2021, 11:03 am
Terrapin Station wrote:That's no different from the ignorant crap that had music, video games, etc. blamed for all sorts of behavior.
In your view, does "copycat crime" ever genuinely happen? I would guess you'd answer no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_c ... s%20crime.
Sure, people can decide to emulate someone else's crime, but you can't blame the initial crime for the copycat crime. It was the copycat's decision to emulate the crime. In no way did the original crime MAKE the person emulate the crime, and the vast majority of people who were familiar with the original crime didn't emulate it. If the original crime had the sort of power/influence to be culpable for the copycat, then it would be inexplicable why most people familiar with it do not emulate it.
In addition, even if there was a copycat crime, there is no data that anything other than the type of crime was influenced by the original, that is: in the absence of the original the copycat likely would have just done a generic, random crime (as opposed to no crime at all).
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

LuckyR wrote: January 28th, 2021, 9:38 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 28th, 2021, 2:17 pm
Steve3007 wrote: January 28th, 2021, 11:03 am
Terrapin Station wrote:That's no different from the ignorant crap that had music, video games, etc. blamed for all sorts of behavior.
In your view, does "copycat crime" ever genuinely happen? I would guess you'd answer no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_c ... s%20crime.
Sure, people can decide to emulate someone else's crime, but you can't blame the initial crime for the copycat crime. It was the copycat's decision to emulate the crime. In no way did the original crime MAKE the person emulate the crime, and the vast majority of people who were familiar with the original crime didn't emulate it. If the original crime had the sort of power/influence to be culpable for the copycat, then it would be inexplicable why most people familiar with it do not emulate it.
In addition, even if there was a copycat crime, there is no data that anything other than the type of crime was influenced by the original, that is: in the absence of the original the copycat likely would have just done a generic, random crime (as opposed to no crime at all).
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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Count Lucanor wrote: January 27th, 2021, 11:09 pm So when is depicting something immoral, immoral? The standard rule seems to be that if it has the consequence of promoting such immoral act, then it is immoral. Child porn fits into that category: it depicts an immoral act and promotes it. That's the only consequence that is relevant. Again, it can also result in that children be harmed as a consequence of carrying out the immoral act, which aggravates the immorality of the action, but that's just an additional, accessory condition, that may occur or may not. Also, some people might argue that the direct relation between the depiction of something and fostering it is disputable, but if the matter cannot be settled easily, one should take the worst case scenario as a precaution.

So, if child porn is immoral just for promoting an immoral act, fictional child porn too, no matter what are the added consequences.


Given that child porn implies actual sex with children, and sex with children is a moral taboo of modern societies, it makes sense that child porn is illegal. Killing someone with a gun is not immoral per se, until you add the circumstances in which it occurred, but that's not the case for sex with children, it is prohibited under any circumstance.
So, in your conception, if depiction's equivalence with promotion is ambiguous, then it should always be considered equivalent?
Terrapin Station wrote: January 28th, 2021, 9:54 am That's no different from the ignorant crap that had music, video games, etc. blamed for all sorts of behavior.
In fairness, what Lucanor is saying (if I've understood it right) isn't "drawn/written CP will cause child molestation, therefore it is immoral" (which would be equivalent to your comparison), but "drawn/written CP carries the implicit message that sex with children is morally OK to do, therefore it is immoral".
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Steve3007 »

Terrapin Station wrote:Sure, people can decide to emulate someone else's crime, but you can't blame the initial crime for the copycat crime. It was the copycat's decision to emulate the crime. In no way did the original crime MAKE the person emulate the crime, and the vast majority of people who were familiar with the original crime didn't emulate it. If the original crime had the sort of power/influence to be culpable for the copycat, then it would be inexplicable why most people familiar with it do not emulate it.
Yes, that's pretty much what I'd expect you to say as it's consistent with the views you've expressed before on the nature of human actions. Previously you've said that human action, when the word is used in the context of philosophy, can, by definition, have no prior causes. As discussed previously, and as shown again by the parts I've highlighted above in bold, you seem to regard causality as all-or-nothing. If A is a prior cause of B then your view seems to be that it forces B in such a way that if A happens B must necessarily happen. Since clearly human actions aren't like that you'd conclude that the concept of prior cause is not applicable. Human actions can (in your view) cause things but can't be caused by things.

As I've said before I think the concept of causality is useful for describing complex systems like humans and that it's perfectly consistent to talk of humans actions being causally influenced by things, even when B doesn't always follow A. I don't view causality in that all-or-nothing way and it appears to lead to what I view as absurdities, such as that the Nazi high command were entirely morally blameless and that all the blame should be taken by the foot soldiers, or any others who actually carried out physical actions. I don't make the hard, discrete distinction between words and actions that you seem to make.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Steve3007 »

LuckyR wrote:In addition, even if there was a copycat crime, there is no data that anything other than the type of crime was influenced by the original, that is: in the absence of the original the copycat likely would have just done a generic, random crime (as opposed to no crime at all).
Since you said "likely", I presume you're speculating about that last part: that some generic, random crime would have been committed instead. It could be true. But, for the sake of argument, if statistics showed that it wasn't, would you think it reasonable to invoke the concepts of cause/causality/causal influence when talking about such things as copycat crime? Or do you think it's ever appropriate to talk of one person being caused to do something by another?

In the movie The Godfather, when Michael Corleone said this:

"Luca Brasi held a gun to his head, and my father assured him that either his brains or his signature would be on the contract."

do you think it's appropriate to say that Luca Brasi, or the Don, in any way caused that signature to be written on that contract? Do you think it's appropriate to say that the Don caused Luca Brasi to hold a gun to somebody's head?
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

TwoBrains wrote: January 29th, 2021, 2:40 am
Count Lucanor wrote: January 27th, 2021, 11:09 pm So when is depicting something immoral, immoral? The standard rule seems to be that if it has the consequence of promoting such immoral act, then it is immoral. Child porn fits into that category: it depicts an immoral act and promotes it. That's the only consequence that is relevant. Again, it can also result in that children be harmed as a consequence of carrying out the immoral act, which aggravates the immorality of the action, but that's just an additional, accessory condition, that may occur or may not. Also, some people might argue that the direct relation between the depiction of something and fostering it is disputable, but if the matter cannot be settled easily, one should take the worst case scenario as a precaution.

So, if child porn is immoral just for promoting an immoral act, fictional child porn too, no matter what are the added consequences.


Given that child porn implies actual sex with children, and sex with children is a moral taboo of modern societies, it makes sense that child porn is illegal. Killing someone with a gun is not immoral per se, until you add the circumstances in which it occurred, but that's not the case for sex with children, it is prohibited under any circumstance.
So, in your conception, if depiction's equivalence with promotion is ambiguous, then it should always be considered equivalent?
Terrapin Station wrote: January 28th, 2021, 9:54 am That's no different from the ignorant crap that had music, video games, etc. blamed for all sorts of behavior.
In fairness, what Lucanor is saying (if I've understood it right) isn't "drawn/written CP will cause child molestation, therefore it is immoral" (which would be equivalent to your comparison), but "drawn/written CP carries the implicit message that sex with children is morally OK to do, therefore it is immoral".
First off, it's not true that anything is or isn't immoral. Whether something is moral or immoral is an noncognitive disposition that people have. Different people have different dispositions. None of those dispositions are correct or incorrect. That's a category error for them.

Secondly, the whole notion of an "implicit message" would have to be supported there, especially as something that's not simply a way that someone can interpret it, where anyone could interpret something in any arbitrary way.

Thirdly, the whole idea that people are, or that we should simply make excuses for them to be, sheep who follow what other people say is moral or immoral is problematic.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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Steve3007 wrote: January 29th, 2021, 6:52 am it appears to lead to what I view as absurdities, such as that the Nazi high command were entirely morally blameless and that all the blame should be taken by the foot soldiers, or any others who actually carried out physical actions. I don't make the hard, discrete distinction between words and actions that you seem to make.
I think it would be interesting to try to figure out why you see that as absurd.

Usually we use "absurd" for things in the vein of, "That's obviously false!" But when we're talking about this sort of stuff, we're not even talking about things that are true or false. So it seems like "absurd" would just amount to, "That's so different than what I'm used to thinking that I can't grapple with it, really."
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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Terrapin Station wrote:I think it would be interesting to try to figure out why you see that as absurd.

Usually we use "absurd" for things in the vein of, "That's obviously false!" But when we're talking about this sort of stuff, we're not even talking about things that are true or false. So it seems like "absurd" would just amount to, "That's so different than what I'm used to thinking that I can't grapple with it, really."
Yes, "absurd" is probably the wrong word for the reason you've said. If we think of moral positions in the same way that we think of personal tastes or preferences, then I suppose it would be more appropriate to say that it's very, very different from my own personal taste, or preference. As if you'd said "I love the taste of engine oil" or something.

If somebody were to use their skills as an orator, leader and persuader to set up a system of command and control which functions very effectively for the purpose of genocide (for example) I would have a very strong tendency/personal taste/preference for regarding that person as morally wrong to do so. I would have a very strong preference not to place the blame entirely on the people at the end of the chain of command. Obviously that differs very much from your own preferences/tastes.

Alternatively, rather than simply saying that these things are not to my taste, I suppose we could explore it in a more consequentialist way. I could say that genocide is the thing that is actually not to my taste. I'd probably discover that it's not to your taste too. We could then attempt to explore which of our two positions (which might crudely be called "blame the talkers" and "blame the actors") is most likely to discourage that thing which is not to either of our tastes (genocide). But then, of course, we'd get bogged down in considerations of what the consequences of various positions are most likely to be in practice.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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Terrapin Station wrote:Thirdly, the whole idea that people are, or that we should simply make excuses for them to be, sheep who follow what other people say is moral or immoral is problematic.
This seems to me another example of this "all-or-nothing" thing that I don't agree with. When people say things like "people aren't sheep" or "people aren't children" I don't entirely agree! I don't agree that there is a hard, discrete dividing line between adult humans and sheep or between adult humans and children. We don't suddenly change into a whole different type of entity when we reach the age of majority, whatever our society might decide that is. I don't think it makes any sense for our moral positions to pretend that we do.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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Steve3007 wrote: January 29th, 2021, 11:51 am
Terrapin Station wrote:I think it would be interesting to try to figure out why you see that as absurd.

Usually we use "absurd" for things in the vein of, "That's obviously false!" But when we're talking about this sort of stuff, we're not even talking about things that are true or false. So it seems like "absurd" would just amount to, "That's so different than what I'm used to thinking that I can't grapple with it, really."
Yes, "absurd" is probably the wrong word for the reason you've said. If we think of moral positions in the same way that we think of personal tastes or preferences, then I suppose it would be more appropriate to say that it's very, very different from my own personal taste, or preference. As if you'd said "I love the taste of engine oil" or something.

If somebody were to use their skills as an orator, leader and persuader to set up a system of command and control which functions very effectively for the purpose of genocide (for example) I would have a very strong tendency/personal taste/preference for regarding that person as morally wrong to do so. I would have a very strong preference not to place the blame entirely on the people at the end of the chain of command. Obviously that differs very much from your own preferences/tastes.

Alternatively, rather than simply saying that these things are not to my taste, I suppose we could explore it in a more consequentialist way. I could say that genocide is the thing that is actually not to my taste. I'd probably discover that it's not to your taste too. We could then attempt to explore which of our two positions (which might crudely be called "blame the talkers" and "blame the actors") is most likely to discourage that thing which is not to either of our tastes (genocide). But then, of course, we'd get bogged down in considerations of what the consequences of various positions are most likely to be in practice.
Good points there.

I'm curious re your view of cults. Do you put a lot of blame on cult leaders for people joining and sticking with cults, or do you put most of the responsibility on the followers? Say, for example, the folks at Rajneeshpuram--how much responsibility do you put on Rajneesh?

Or let's say Scientologists (which I view as a cult, though that may be more controversial). How much responsibility do you put on L. Ron Hubbard versus his followers?
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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Steve3007 wrote: January 29th, 2021, 11:59 am
Terrapin Station wrote:Thirdly, the whole idea that people are, or that we should simply make excuses for them to be, sheep who follow what other people say is moral or immoral is problematic.
This seems to me another example of this "all-or-nothing" thing that I don't agree with. When people say things like "people aren't sheep" or "people aren't children" I don't entirely agree! I don't agree that there is a hard, discrete dividing line between adult humans and sheep or between adult humans and children. We don't suddenly change into a whole different type of entity when we reach the age of majority, whatever our society might decide that is. I don't think it makes any sense for our moral positions to pretend that we do.
That's why I said "or that we should simply make excuses for them to be . . ."

Insofar as there's a tendency towards that, I think we should treat it as society conventionally treats, say, a proclivity for pedophilia at the moment. How about we demonize tendencies to simply follow other people/what they say without critically assessing it/thinking for oneself/coming to one's own conclusions and taking responsibility for one's own actions?
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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Terrapin Station wrote:I'm curious re your view of cults. Do you put a lot of blame on cult leaders for people joining and sticking with cults, or do you put most of the responsibility on the followers?
It would depend on details about the cult. But the key point would be that I'm unlikely to put all the blame on either one side or the other for reasons discussed in various other places.
Say, for example, the folks at Rajneeshpuram--how much responsibility do you put on Rajneesh?
I don't know much about that one so would have to do some research on Rajneesh before deciding.
Or let's say Scientologists (which I view as a cult, though that may be more controversial). How much responsibility do you put on L. Ron Hubbard versus his followers?
Difficult to give it a percentage, but off the top of my head I'd put some on both. As a general rule, I'd try to take into account quite a lot of the circumstances of any given case.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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TwoBrains wrote: January 29th, 2021, 2:40 am
So, in your conception, if depiction's equivalence with promotion is ambiguous, then it should always be considered equivalent?
In our society, when something highly sensitive as children's safety is at stake, I think we should.
Terrapin Station wrote: January 28th, 2021, 9:54 am That's no different from the ignorant crap that had music, video games, etc. blamed for all sorts of behavior.
TwoBrains wrote: January 29th, 2021, 2:40 am In fairness, what Lucanor is saying (if I've understood it right) isn't "drawn/written CP will cause child molestation, therefore it is immoral" (which would be equivalent to your comparison), but "drawn/written CP carries the implicit message that sex with children is morally OK to do, therefore it is immoral".
Yes, you understood it right. It is not relevant that an actual crime is being committed, but that the conditions where such crimes are made acceptable are promoted. As immoral as many crimes portrayed in media are, and despite the fact that their portrayal can actually make them appealing (gangsters looking like rebel heroes, for example), none of them is comparable to sex with children, which is taboo in our society (not in all).
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