Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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baker
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 9:27 amHowever, if mere speech is causing other people to take actions that would deprive you of your livelihood, your freedom, body parts, etc., then other people are squelching your freedom of speech.
Well, duh. It's not like anything can really be done about that.
This doesn't imply that I'd have "tolerance legislation."
Oh? Then what would you do with those people who take actions that would deprive you of your livelihood, your freedom, body parts, etc., because of something you said?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 9:45 am
Terrapin Station wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 9:27 amHowever, if mere speech is causing other people to take actions that would deprive you of your livelihood, your freedom, body parts, etc., then other people are squelching your freedom of speech.
Well, duh. It's not like anything can really be done about that.
This doesn't imply that I'd have "tolerance legislation."
Oh? Then what would you do with those people who take actions that would deprive you of your livelihood, your freedom, body parts, etc., because of something you said?
It depends on exactly what they're doing. If they're removing body parts nonconsensually in response to speech, we already have legislation against that, but it's not "tolerance legislation."

In some cases you merely try to influence people to decide to behave differently than they're behaving, via persuasion, etc.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 2nd, 2021, 9:59 amIt depends on exactly what they're doing. If they're removing body parts nonconsensually in response to speech, we already have legislation against that, but it's not "tolerance legislation."
Do you care how, for example, white supremacists feel about anti-discrimination laws?
In some cases you merely try to influence people to decide to behave differently than they're behaving, via persuasion, etc.
Which those people not rarely exprience as an attack on their freedom.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: January 4th, 2021, 7:37 am Do you care how, for example, white supremacists feel about anti-discrimination laws?
I wouldn't assume that everyone falling under some category like that feels just one way about something. Even with respect to what white supremacy amounts to, there are a lot of different ideas among people who'd self-identify that way. At any rate, in general, I'm not really in favor of anti-discrimination laws, either, but that's partially because I'd not have anything like the economic or general social structure setup that we currently have. I'd do something very different if I were king.
Which those people not rarely exprience as an attack on their freedom.
People can interpret things all sorts of ways. Anyone could interpret anything as an attack of their freedom or as a support of their freedom. I'm simply telling you my views. I'm not at all against anyone trying to influence/persuade others via speech.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 4th, 2021, 8:55 amPeople can interpret things all sorts of ways. Anyone could interpret anything as an attack of their freedom or as a support of their freedom. I'm simply telling you my views. I'm not at all against anyone trying to influence/persuade others via speech.
Then what do you actually stand for?
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: January 4th, 2021, 9:37 am
Terrapin Station wrote: January 4th, 2021, 8:55 amPeople can interpret things all sorts of ways. Anyone could interpret anything as an attack of their freedom or as a support of their freedom. I'm simply telling you my views. I'm not at all against anyone trying to influence/persuade others via speech.
Then what do you actually stand for?
Re freedom of speech? That no speech is legislated against, for one.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 4th, 2021, 10:00 amRe freedom of speech? That no speech is legislated against, for one.
But why? What good can come of that??
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: January 4th, 2021, 10:15 am
Terrapin Station wrote: January 4th, 2021, 10:00 amRe freedom of speech? That no speech is legislated against, for one.
But why?
Because it's a preference that I have. It's a disposition of mine, akin to an emotional disposition. That's what all ethical/moral stances are on a foundational level.
What good can come of that??
A preference is something one would rather be the case, obviously. That's the whole idea of them. You'd rather things be like x than y.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

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You -- and whose army?
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: January 5th, 2021, 7:31 am You -- and whose army?
I don't understand how this makes sense in context.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by baker »

So you have your preferences and your dispositions. But so what? Those in positions of power probably don't care about them.
Who defends your preferences and your dispositions? Who makes it possible for you to act on them? You alone?
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: January 5th, 2021, 5:03 pm So you have your preferences and your dispositions. But so what?
So a large part of people interacting with each other is people trying to persuade others to behave more in line with their own preferences.
Those in positions of power probably don't care about them.
They might have very different preferences, sure. So if you want, if you're sufficiently motivated, you figure out ways to try to persuade them to behave more in line with your preferences. One way you can do that is by putting pressure on the things that give those folks power.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by TwoBrains »

Wow, this thread blew up while I was gone. I managed to forget about this issue entirely - life came at me fast. I'm glad I managed to foster such extensive and spirited discussion. Sorry to necro the thread (as last I checked, there is nothing in the rules against it), but one thing in particular snagged my attention here:
Count Lucanor wrote: December 18th, 2020, 11:28 pm "What does federal law say?

In 2003, Congress passed the PROTECT Act, which stands for the, “Prosecutorial Remedies and Other Tools to end the Exploitation of Children Today” Act. Under the Protect Act, it is illegal to create, possess, or distribute, "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is ‘obscene' or ‘depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in...sexual intercourse...and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.” (18 U.S. Code § 1466A). To clarify, under federal law, drawing and animation are considered child pornography, and you can be convicted for possession or marketing of such material."


The Act already allows for the qualification of animated child porn as 'obscene', so it does not leave it open for interpretation:

"In 1973, the Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment right to free speech does not include “obscene” language and material (Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15 (1973)). The PROTECT Act specifically and purposefully includes the word “obscene,” so that visual depictions of child pornography cannot be protected under the First Amendment. "

I agree with this legal and ethical approach.
Steve3007 wrote: December 21st, 2020, 12:17 pm I agree with that legal and ethical approach too
I can at least slightly comprehend the reasoning behind illegalizing creation or distribution of certain forms of harmful speech; that would be a similar principle to the illegalization of incitement to ethnic or racial hatred (as opposed to "mere" hate speech), which I wholeheartedly support due to my belief that such speech has the potential to incite harmful action or foster an environment in which harmful action is more likely to occur. However, the rationale behind illegalizing and, therefore, implicitly condemning as moral evil, mere possession of this kind of "speech" escapes me; as the mere act of viewing a piece of speech, however disgusting or unethical in topic, constitutes no harm that I can think of and cannot in and of itself be considered proof of intent to commit harmful action. (Since this thread has already gotten the Godwin out of the way, perhaps possession of a drawn picture of a fictional child in a sexual situation could be compared to possessing a copy of Mein Kampf or a similar manifesto from a contemporary, still-living far-right agitator?)

Then again, I can see the case for this being treated similarly to, say, gun control, where the aim is not to punish or morally condemn hypothetical individual responsible gun users who don't commit crimes with their guns, but to make sure that irresponsible gun users have a harder time acquiring guns; possession having repercussions would then serve as further deterrent. Under this model, I suppose that hypothetical """responsible drawn child pornography users""" who view these pictures and then go about their day without harming children would not matter; the point would then be to ensure that fewer people see this "speech" and, in some way or another, are driven by it to harm children.
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Count Lucanor »

TwoBrains wrote: January 26th, 2021, 10:52 pm
I can at least slightly comprehend the reasoning behind illegalizing creation or distribution of certain forms of harmful speech; that would be a similar principle to the illegalization of incitement to ethnic or racial hatred (as opposed to "mere" hate speech), which I wholeheartedly support due to my belief that such speech has the potential to incite harmful action or foster an environment in which harmful action is more likely to occur. However, the rationale behind illegalizing and, therefore, implicitly condemning as moral evil, mere possession of this kind of "speech" escapes me; as the mere act of viewing a piece of speech, however disgusting or unethical in topic, constitutes no harm that I can think of and cannot in and of itself be considered proof of intent to commit harmful action. (Since this thread has already gotten the Godwin out of the way, perhaps possession of a drawn picture of a fictional child in a sexual situation could be compared to possessing a copy of Mein Kampf or a similar manifesto from a contemporary, still-living far-right agitator?)

Then again, I can see the case for this being treated similarly to, say, gun control, where the aim is not to punish or morally condemn hypothetical individual responsible gun users who don't commit crimes with their guns, but to make sure that irresponsible gun users have a harder time acquiring guns; possession having repercussions would then serve as further deterrent. Under this model, I suppose that hypothetical """responsible drawn child pornography users""" who view these pictures and then go about their day without harming children would not matter; the point would then be to ensure that fewer people see this "speech" and, in some way or another, are driven by it to harm children.
This was addressed in my first post:

So when is depicting something immoral, immoral? The standard rule seems to be that if it has the consequence of promoting such immoral act, then it is immoral. Child porn fits into that category: it depicts an immoral act and promotes it. That's the only consequence that is relevant. Again, it can also result in that children be harmed as a consequence of carrying out the immoral act, which aggravates the immorality of the action, but that's just an additional, accessory condition, that may occur or may not. Also, some people might argue that the direct relation between the depiction of something and fostering it is disputable, but if the matter cannot be settled easily, one should take the worst case scenario as a precaution.

So, if child porn is immoral just for promoting an immoral act, fictional child porn too, no matter what are the added consequences.


Given that child porn implies actual sex with children, and sex with children is a moral taboo of modern societies, it makes sense that child porn is illegal. Killing someone with a gun is not immoral per se, until you add the circumstances in which it occurred, but that's not the case for sex with children, it is prohibited under any circumstance.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Relationship between fictional CP and grooming?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Count Lucanor wrote: January 27th, 2021, 11:09 pm
TwoBrains wrote: January 26th, 2021, 10:52 pm
I can at least slightly comprehend the reasoning behind illegalizing creation or distribution of certain forms of harmful speech; that would be a similar principle to the illegalization of incitement to ethnic or racial hatred (as opposed to "mere" hate speech), which I wholeheartedly support due to my belief that such speech has the potential to incite harmful action or foster an environment in which harmful action is more likely to occur. However, the rationale behind illegalizing and, therefore, implicitly condemning as moral evil, mere possession of this kind of "speech" escapes me; as the mere act of viewing a piece of speech, however disgusting or unethical in topic, constitutes no harm that I can think of and cannot in and of itself be considered proof of intent to commit harmful action. (Since this thread has already gotten the Godwin out of the way, perhaps possession of a drawn picture of a fictional child in a sexual situation could be compared to possessing a copy of Mein Kampf or a similar manifesto from a contemporary, still-living far-right agitator?)

Then again, I can see the case for this being treated similarly to, say, gun control, where the aim is not to punish or morally condemn hypothetical individual responsible gun users who don't commit crimes with their guns, but to make sure that irresponsible gun users have a harder time acquiring guns; possession having repercussions would then serve as further deterrent. Under this model, I suppose that hypothetical """responsible drawn child pornography users""" who view these pictures and then go about their day without harming children would not matter; the point would then be to ensure that fewer people see this "speech" and, in some way or another, are driven by it to harm children.
This was addressed in my first post:

So when is depicting something immoral, immoral? The standard rule seems to be that if it has the consequence of promoting such immoral act, then it is immoral. Child porn fits into that category: it depicts an immoral act and promotes it. That's the only consequence that is relevant. Again, it can also result in that children be harmed as a consequence of carrying out the immoral act, which aggravates the immorality of the action, but that's just an additional, accessory condition, that may occur or may not. Also, some people might argue that the direct relation between the depiction of something and fostering it is disputable, but if the matter cannot be settled easily, one should take the worst case scenario as a precaution.

So, if child porn is immoral just for promoting an immoral act, fictional child porn too, no matter what are the added consequences.


Given that child porn implies actual sex with children, and sex with children is a moral taboo of modern societies, it makes sense that child porn is illegal. Killing someone with a gun is not immoral per se, until you add the circumstances in which it occurred, but that's not the case for sex with children, it is prohibited under any circumstance.
That's no different from the ignorant crap that had music, video games, etc. blamed for all sorts of behavior.
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