The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

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impermanence
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The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by impermanence »

For those who have been among the living over the past half century, there appears to be a substantial increase in the level of purposeful deception that has become perfectly acceptable in contemporary American society. It seemed to have started in the advertising and PR fields in the 60's [with their ever-expanding need to stretch the truth] and quickly metastasized.

Examples are everywhere but one my favorites is portrayed in every professional athletic venue where the participant attempts to deceive the umpires [baseball, in this case] that he caught the ball whereas anybody watching [and certainly on slow-motion replay] can witness that this was not the case. It is the expectation of all concerned that the baseball player attempt to deceive the umpires because winning is everything and lying is simply another strategy to this end.

The professional sports example is particularly disturbing because it sets an example for young people who often idolize these professional athletes, but [as we all know] the practice is ubiquitous. I would be interested in hearing from others on why they feel that so few people seem to care about this egregious behavior.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by Sy Borg »

The rise of the Untouchable Obvious Lie has sure shocked me.

Ultimately, if there is no serious sanction for lying, as was once the case, then opportunities abound for the unscrupulous. The issue is that the press must be free to report as they see fit. That freedom was exploited by Rupert Murdoch, gaining him great power and profit, and he has lead a race to the bottom with flagrant misrepresentations and extreme partisanship.

The neglect of public education, with funding cut in real terms over decades, has resulted in a majority of people being unable to assess the relative objectivity and credibility of information, a situation that suits liars.

Without agreement on what is real, our current systems will degrade due to lack of cooperation. It appears that this century will see the end of democracy and nationhood as we know it, to be replaced by neo-feudal power blocs.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Hopefully, our liar-in-chief will be held to account for his post-election behavior. Perhaps some of his supporters will wise-up and rise-up in indignation for being fooled in a way that is every day becoming more and more obvious to everyone, even those in maga hats.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by LuckyR »

This is a result of a shift in the relative importance of ends and means in an increasingly competitive society.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by baker »

impermanence wrote: December 5th, 2020, 12:49 pmI would be interested in hearing from others on why they feel that so few people seem to care about this egregious behavior.
Probably because so many people use lying as a means to an end they desire that they don't find lying all that egregious at all.

This is not limited to the US or the relatively modern history. In my experience, in European cultures, for example, there is something called "public secrets": things that pretty much everyone knows to be true, but noone will openly admit them or talk about them in any way, other than to deny them and claim that those who say otherwise are paranoid, evil, etc.

All this is traditionally done under a veneer of politeness and civility. Newer trends seems to be to do it more boldly.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by Pattern-chaser »

impermanence wrote: December 5th, 2020, 12:49 pm For those who have been among the living over the past half century, there appears to be a substantial increase in the level of purposeful deception that has become perfectly acceptable in contemporary American society. It seemed to have started in the advertising and PR fields in the 60's [with their ever-expanding need to stretch the truth] and quickly metastasized.
I think it first became visible via PR and advertising, but the lying actually emerged, in America, from Libertarian (i.e. Individualist) Capitalism. Greed lead us to tolerate more and greater lies. Individuals harbour fantasies of being rich too, so they protect the mechanisms whereby the rich just get richer and richer, in the hope that one day they might also have more and better than anyone else. Lies are a tool of greed, and greed (along with unbounded consumption) is our global religion these days. All is permissible, even desirable, in the name of acquisition, including lies.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

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Greta wrote: December 5th, 2020, 4:47 pm The neglect of public education, with funding cut in real terms over decades, has resulted in a majority of people being unable to assess the relative objectivity and credibility of information, a situation that suits liars.
I completely agree with your basic summary, but I wonder if this (above) is quite right? I think people knowingly choose to believe their preferred lies, eschewing 'experts', objective assessment, and so on. The recent tide of Individualism has reached a point where every one expects their opinion to be respected (OK, that's not new), AND they assert their right for those opinions to be correct!!! Trump's supporters believe what he says because they want to; they choose to. Facts and objectivity have nothing to do with it.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by Terrapin Station »

Athletes have always done what you're talking about. If you're skeptical of this, just read autobiographies of athletes who were active in the early years of sports like professional baseball. It's just that with HD cameras and replay, it's much harder for them to get away with it.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by baker »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 6th, 2020, 8:46 am
Greta wrote: December 5th, 2020, 4:47 pm The neglect of public education, with funding cut in real terms over decades, has resulted in a majority of people being unable to assess the relative objectivity and credibility of information, a situation that suits liars.
I completely agree with your basic summary, but I wonder if this (above) is quite right? I think people knowingly choose to believe their preferred lies, eschewing 'experts', objective assessment, and so on. The recent tide of Individualism has reached a point where every one expects their opinion to be respected (OK, that's not new), AND they assert their right for those opinions to be correct!!! Trump's supporters believe what he says because they want to; they choose to. Facts and objectivity have nothing to do with it.
I think people often don't trust the "experts" because the "experts" all too often don't present a unified position, but often enough contradict eachother. And if even the experts can't work it out, how are the ordinary people supposed to do it?

And secondly, people often don't trust the "experts" and authorities because they have betrayed them too many times in the past. When people in positions of power keep making promises that they don't keep, when they are caught lying over and over again, it's only natural that the people below them don't trust them anymore.

The recent tide of Individualism has reached a point where every one expects their opinion to be respected (OK, that's not new), AND they assert their right for those opinions to be correct!!!
The question is whether this is motivated by defensiveness or entitlement.

Also, I have discovered that this (the part I quote from you) is how some people interpret the constitutional clause about the freedom of speech. For example, I remember a forum discussion once where are Christian woman presented an argument for why her religion was the right one (I forgot what exactly it was, but that's not important here). Someone pointed out to her that her conclusion doesn't follow from her premises. She replied that she has a constitutionally granted freedom of speech and that therefore, she has the right to say that her conclusion follows from her premises, and that others have to respect that.
The constitutionally granted freedom of speech trumps logic.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 6th, 2020, 8:46 am I think people knowingly choose to believe their preferred lies, eschewing 'experts', objective assessment, and so on. The recent tide of Individualism has reached a point where every one expects their opinion to be respected (OK, that's not new), AND they assert their right for those opinions to be correct!!! Trump's supporters believe what he says because they want to; they choose to. Facts and objectivity have nothing to do with it.
baker wrote: December 6th, 2020, 9:52 am I think people often don't trust the "experts" because the "experts" all too often don't present a unified position, but often enough contradict eachother. And if even the experts can't work it out, how are the ordinary people supposed to do it?
We see this argument regularly. It's based around a simple misunderstanding of the abilities of experts, pronouncing on the real world. RL is complicated and messy. No-one knows it all, or gets it all right. Even within a speciality, there are differences of opinion. This is because the issues involved are complicated. The opinions of experts cannot be guaranteed; RL isn't like that. But the opinions of experts are often more accurate and useful than those of others who are ... less expert. People need to exercise their own minds, and choose for themselves how best to interpret the opinions of experts, and others too. There is no fount of knowledge that we can refer to, and get the answerrs we want without effort. The world doesn't work like that, IME.


baker wrote: December 6th, 2020, 9:52 am [A] Christian woman presented an argument for why her religion was the right one (I forgot what exactly it was, but that's not important here). Someone pointed out to her that her conclusion doesn't follow from her premises. She replied that she has a constitutionally granted freedom of speech and that therefore, she has the right to say that her conclusion follows from her premises, and that others have to respect that.
The constitutionally granted freedom of speech trumps logic.
Americans have the constitutional right to be right? Now I've heard it all! 🙄
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by baker »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 6th, 2020, 11:03 amWe see this argument regularly. It's based around a simple misunderstanding of the abilities of experts, pronouncing on the real world. RL is complicated and messy. No-one knows it all, or gets it all right. Even within a speciality, there are differences of opinion. This is because the issues involved are complicated. The opinions of experts cannot be guaranteed; RL isn't like that. But the opinions of experts are often more accurate and useful than those of others who are ... less expert.
The reason experts are called on by the authorities is precisely for the purpose of minimizing complexity, to present one, simple, true image of reality.
Experts are called on by the authorities to tell people "how things really are".
People need to exercise their own minds, and choose for themselves how best to interpret the opinions of experts, and others too.
Which is exactly what they do.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 6th, 2020, 9:17 am Athletes have always done what you're talking about. If you're skeptical of this, just read autobiographies of athletes who were active in the early years of sports like professional baseball. It's just that with HD cameras and replay, it's much harder for them to get away with it.
There should be HD cameras everywhere. That seems to be the only way to solve crimes. We see TV police relying on cameras all the time to see the crime happening or to trace someone's movements on foot or by car. If an area was well covered by stationary cameras or drones or both, then police would no longer need body cameras and victims of police would no longer need iPhones.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 6th, 2020, 11:03 amWe see this argument regularly. It's based around a simple misunderstanding of the abilities of experts, pronouncing on the real world. RL is complicated and messy. No-one knows it all, or gets it all right. Even within a speciality, there are differences of opinion. This is because the issues involved are complicated. The opinions of experts cannot be guaranteed; RL isn't like that. But the opinions of experts are often more accurate and useful than those of others who are ... less expert.

baker wrote: December 6th, 2020, 11:21 am The reason experts are called on by the authorities is precisely for the purpose of minimizing complexity, to present one, simple, true image of reality.
Experts are called on by the authorities to tell people "how things really are".

Then the authorities are wrong. They are guilty of the misunderstanding I describe (above). Comlexity can be simplified as much as possible, but no more. To go farther is described as simplistic: simplifying to the point where what you're left with is rubbish. The real world cannot be reduced to one simple, true, image. It isn't possible. But surely you know and understand this...?
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by baker »

Pattern-chaser wrote: December 6th, 2020, 11:41 amThen the authorities are wrong. They are guilty of the misunderstanding I describe (above). Comlexity can be simplified as much as possible, but no more. To go farther is described as simplistic: simplifying to the point where what you're left with is rubbish. The real world cannot be reduced to one simple, true, image. It isn't possible. But surely you know and understand this...?
I understand this. But the people in positions of power don't care. Well, typically they don't.
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Re: The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

Post by Ecurb »

It's risky to assume that unique occurences (like Trump's Presidency) indicate a fundamental change in the American character and that American's now accept and even enjoy lying.

The reality is that Americans have always admired the skillful liar. "Show me a man who don't lie," said Mark Twain, "And I'll show you a man who ain't got much to say." Con men, gold mine sellers, and various slicksters hold a high position in the imagination of Americans, all of whom want to get rich quick. We think of the Capitalist/Protestant ethic as involving "merit" -- one succeeds through moral excellence: diligence, fortitude an prudence. But that's the ethic the elite want to disseminate to the hoi palloi. IN Europe, where the class distinctions are less fluid, the ethic is more acceptable than it is here in America. We believe in luck, gold rushes, patent medicines, and confidence games.

Harold Hill's vision of the band lives in our dreams. How wonderful it will be, when we find the Big Rock Candy Mountain.

(OK, I'm exaggerating for effect. But I'm not "lying".)

Another Mark Twain story: Twain was returning fronm a fishing trip in Maine. ON the train, he struck up a conversation with a stranger. "The fishing was great," said Twain. "We caught double our limit every day."

"Before we continue," said the stranger, "I should inform you that I am the head fish and game warden for the state of Maine."

"Pleased to make your acquaintance," said Twain. "And I should probably inform you that I am the biggest liar in the state of Maine."
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