The Acceptance of Lying In American Society

[impermanence]

Donald Trump is who he has been for the last 30 years. The people who support him seem to know this and supported him despite his personality shortcomings.

Although other politicians might look and talk the part better, many people have no more trust in them then in Trump.

It's not about looking and talking the part better. I care nothing for such things if you could see me in all my dishevelment, you would see what I mean But Trump's corruption is beyond tolerance. We tolerate moderate corruption al the time, but when someone works so hard to remove all checks and balances on their power, alarm bells rings. People always think things couldn't get any worse until they allow a demagogue to take control - then they find out why freedom is valued, and why voting for a kleptocrat is not a good idea.

Many Republicans have supported Trump's attempts to destroy US democracy and to replace it with, in his words, "a continuation". What we have in the US is a moral and intellectual failing in the populace of massive proportions, last seen in the Third Reich and Mao's Cultural Revolution. As with those two examples of societal sickness, the complaints are legitimate, but a dictatorship is not a cure for inequality, it's an exacerbation.

Greta, you could do me a great service by explaining to me how Trump attempted to destroy US democracy. Although I agree that the US is slipping towards a Maoist type of mindset via a pseudo-cultural revolution, I see this coming from the left, not right.

Personally, I consider myself a non-political, self-styled philosophical anarchist [neither right nor left]. I am for anybody who supports maximum individual freedom [with limited but effective government to insure security and property rights].

You say that Trump's corruption is beyond tolerance but he seems to pale compared to the Democrats that have nearly ruined everything they touch [of course, the left literally ruins everything they touch].

[Sy Borg]

It's not about looking and talking the part better. I care nothing for such things if you could see me in all my dishevelment, you would see what I mean :) But Trump's corruption is beyond tolerance. We tolerate moderate corruption al the time, but when someone works so hard to remove all checks and balances on their power, alarm bells rings. People always think things couldn't get any worse until they allow a demagogue to take control - then they find out why freedom is valued, and why voting for a kleptocrat is not a good idea.

Many Republicans have supported Trump's attempts to destroy US democracy and to replace it with, in his words, "a continuation". What we have in the US is a moral and intellectual failing in the populace of massive proportions, last seen in the Third Reich and Mao's Cultural Revolution. As with those two examples of societal sickness, the complaints are legitimate, but a dictatorship is not a cure for inequality, it's an exacerbation.

Greta, you could do me a great service by explaining to me how Trump attempted to destroy US democracy. Although I agree that the US is slipping towards a Maoist type of mindset via a pseudo-cultural revolution, I see this coming from the left, not right.

Personally, I consider myself a non-political, self-styled philosophical anarchist [neither right nor left]. I am for anybody who supports maximum individual freedom [with limited but effective government to insure security and property rights].

You say that Trump's corruption is beyond tolerance but he seems to pale compared to the Democrats that have nearly ruined everything they touch [of course, the left literally ruins everything they touch].

Okay, you are from the right. You claiming to be of the centre would be as wrong as me claiming it. I disagree with the left on a number of issues but the political orientation tests I have done always classify me as progressive. I can see how anarchists would absolutely love Trump - he's dismantling the system. But he didn't drain the swamp, he just fattened up the alligators and helped them breed.

If you cannot see how Trump is eroding US democracy, is there any point in me explaining? It is blindingly obvious, so one either sees what he is up to or one chooses not to worry about it. And this seems to depend on whether one favours the right or not. Do you feel that installing a dictator would be better than democracy?

Rightists seem to see no issue in Trump's attempted "bloodless coup", his baseles planting of mistrust in the voting system to disenfranchise those making postal votes (noting that his planted head of the post office worked hard to slow the mail down, so a sizeable number of votes would be sent in time but would arrive after election day). Having worked in elections, I know just how ludicrous and dodgy Trump's claims are. Then there is Trump's lethal anti-risk management politicking that has resulted in at least 100,000 unnecessary COVID deaths. Trump should be made accountable for cynical exacerbation of COVID, just as China should be held accountable for deliberately spreading the virus around the world in the first place, and Bush, Howard and Blair should have been made accountable for invading Iraq (and the Democrats did not do that).

Trump had telegraphed his intention to cast doubt on the electoral system months ago, even though the system is heavily tilted towards Republicans, who apparently have not won a popular vote for many years, but keep on winning the Electoral College.

Trump repeatedly uses an old rhetorical trick that, if one lacks any morality, is guaranteed to work every time. It's a favourite with dictators. If you do anything wrong, all you need to do is accuse the other person of doing it first. It's that simple. Whether the other person is innocent or not does not matter. The point is to pre-emptively erode the other's credibility and to muddy. Enough people fall for it to make the strategy a standard play amongst powerful psychopaths.

My main issue with the right, though, is their irresponsible custodianship of the natural environment. Trump was the worst in that, taking revenge after all his years battling the EPA. He faked an economic recovery by stripping environmental protections, allowing developers to clean up the "low hanging fruit" that had been preserved for generations. Once gone, that's it. That's not management, that's cynicism. Just short-term policies, designed to look good over the period of an electoral cycle, that inflict long-term harms.

[baker]

a dictatorship is not a cure for inequality, it's an exacerbation.

How could there possibly be equality among humans??

[baker]

You say that Trump's corruption is beyond tolerance but he seems to pale compared to the Democrats that have nearly ruined everything they touch [of course, the left literally ruins everything they touch].

It's fascinating that some people consider US Democrats to be the "left". By European standards, US Democrats are center or even center-right.

[Steve3007]

Greta, you could do me a great service by explaining to me how Trump attempted to destroy US democracy.

I think you'd do yourself a service by trying to anticipate possible answers to a question like that by doing some reading about the events of the past month or two and seeing if you can work out what some people might say. You don't have to agree with them. But it often helps to make an honest attempt to consider how one's own views might be challenged. That doesn't mean simply thinking of straw men to knock down. It means seriously considering the counter views to one's own; trying to find arguments that genuinely challenge your own arguments.

[Steve3007]

It's fascinating that some people consider US Democrats to be the "left". By European standards, US Democrats are center or even center-right.

In terms of UK politics I've previously tended to think that in crude left-right terms the US Democrats are equivalent to the centrist/left of the Conservative Party and the US Republicans the extreme right of the Conservative Party, with a lot more religious craziness thrown in. But I think it's got more polarized recently with the right of the Republicans beyond anything in the mainstream Conservative party and the left of the Democrats venturing into Labour Party territory.

[impermanence]

Greta, you could do me a great service by explaining to me how Trump attempted to destroy US democracy. Although I agree that the US is slipping towards a Maoist type of mindset via a pseudo-cultural revolution, I see this coming from the left, not right.

Personally, I consider myself a non-political, self-styled philosophical anarchist [neither right nor left]. I am for anybody who supports maximum individual freedom [with limited but effective government to insure security and property rights].

You say that Trump's corruption is beyond tolerance but he seems to pale compared to the Democrats that have nearly ruined everything they touch [of course, the left literally ruins everything they touch].

Okay, you are from the right. You claiming to be of the centre would be as wrong as me claiming it. I disagree with the left on a number of issues but the political orientation tests I have done always classify me as progressive. I can see how anarchists would absolutely love Trump - he's dismantling the system. But he didn't drain the swamp, he just fattened up the alligators and helped them breed.

Greta, you immediately put me in a category so all the following you stated would apply. I believe that it is very important to have a vibrant conservative and progressive debate on all subject-matter. Progressives represent change and renewal which is essential for a society to improve itself. Just as important is the conservative faction that wants to make sure that what still works is not changed just for the sake of change. The proper synthesis of the two makes for the best potential outcomes. Much of the dys-function that has characterized the past 100 years [and certainly the past 45] can be linked to extreme macro-economic behavior [particularly de-linking the dollar from gold which set into motion a series of events that have decimated Western middle classes].

Again, I am for that side which support individual freedom. This used to be the progressives back in the day, but it has shifted to the other side [as these things do]. I will only speak for myself and say that I do not love Trump but did agree with many of his policies. The left's paranoia about him aspiring to be a dictator seems a bit out there.

If you cannot see how Trump is eroding US democracy, is there any point in me explaining? It is blindingly obvious, so one either sees what he is up to or one chooses not to worry about it. And this seems to depend on whether one favours the right or not. Do you feel that installing a dictator would be better than democracy?

You mean "blindingly obvious" to you and people who think like you do. There are people that believe all kinds of bizarre things. People who believe they know don't know that they don't know.

Rightists seem to see no issue in Trump's attempted "bloodless coup", his baseles planting of mistrust in the voting system to disenfranchise those making postal votes (noting that his planted head of the post office worked hard to slow the mail down, so a sizeable number of votes would be sent in time but would arrive after election day). Having worked in elections, I know just how ludicrous and dodgy Trump's claims are. Then there is Trump's lethal anti-risk management politicking that has resulted in at least 100,000 unnecessary COVID deaths. Trump should be made accountable for cynical exacerbation of COVID, just as China should be held accountable for deliberately spreading the virus around the world in the first place, and Bush, Howard and Blair should have been made accountable for invading Iraq (and the Democrats did not do that).

I don't know about you, but assuming that all [fill in the blank] people think the same way seems like a rather large misjudgment. This is massive corruption throughout this political system so it is hard to know exactly what's going on but I don't put anything past anybody anymore.

As far as COVID is concerned, I have been a physician for over forty years so if you would like to chat about that, fine, but very little is really know about the subject at his point. Blaming Trump for any of this is unfair. Unfortunately, the pandemic was politicized from the very start but Trump was attacked immediately as he was for every other thing. His detractors seem to attempt everything but assassination to get him out of office.

Don't you want this system cleaned up so people can have faith in it once again?

Greta, you've been watching too much TV. Could the entire establishment have said or done anything more to discredit Trump starting even before he was elected? It's a miracle the guy was able to accomplish what he did considering.

This system is in bad shape for all kinds of reasons on all fronts. It's the right and the left that are grossly out of balance which has caused severe economic difficulties on top of technological and other social trends changing the landscape much faster than can an already dys-functional system adapt. People need to stop with this right v. left thing and get down to solving problems.

Like everything else, it's all about ego.

[impermanence]

Greta, you could do me a great service by explaining to me how Trump attempted to destroy US democracy.

I think you'd do yourself a service by trying to anticipate possible answers to a question like that by doing some reading about the events of the past month or two and seeing if you can work out what some people might say. You don't have to agree with them. But it often helps to make an honest attempt to consider how one's own views might be challenged. That doesn't mean simply thinking of straw men to knock down. It means seriously considering the counter views to one's own; trying to find arguments that genuinely challenge your own arguments.

Well, thanks, Steve! I'll completely do things differently now.

Do you have any other advice for me?

[Sy Borg]

Greta, you could do me a great service by explaining to me how Trump attempted to destroy US democracy.

I think you'd do yourself a service by trying to anticipate possible answers to a question like that by doing some reading about the events of the past month or two and seeing if you can work out what some people might say. You don't have to agree with them. But it often helps to make an honest attempt to consider how one's own views might be challenged. That doesn't mean simply thinking of straw men to knock down. It means seriously considering the counter views to one's own; trying to find arguments that genuinely challenge your own arguments.

I can say that I have not seen anything as outrageous in politics in my lifetime. His attempt to subvert the democratic process was so blatant that I did not think anyone could possibly believe him. The courts have found that, time and again, Trump and cronies have simply made up stories and claimed them to be true.

But nothing will convince those who hope Trump is right. As noted, it's all about ego.

[baker]

But nothing will convince those who hope Trump is right. As noted, it's all about ego.

And not survival?

[Sy Borg]

Imp, I too believe that conservatism is needed for stability and progressivism is needed for renewal. I identify as centrist too - all I want is intelligent, pragmatic governance. You know - professional, understanding the subject matter, able to anticipate problems, working to unite rather than divide, to at least usually tell the truth and to NEVER engage in outright fabrication. Not a lot to ask of those who are supposed to be of sufficient quality to lead millions.

Since I differ with the left on a number of issues, I have tested myself on various political spectrum quizzes to see where I stand, and it's still on the left. You should try one. If you think the Dems have always done everything wrong, then you will surely be scored as right wing. Saying you are a right winger is not labelling, it's observation.

Anyone who is not appalled by the constant stream of lies by Trump must be right wing. It is impossible for a true centrist to tolerate that level of abuse of the public trust. It's a dealbreaker before policies are even discussed. As it is, he took credit form improvements already happening under Obama and then blew it all by politicising COVID - remember how he claimed it was a Democrat hoax? He was the one responsible for politicising risk management measures for COVID, just as he is hyper partisan about all issues.

[Sy Borg]

But nothing will convince those who hope Trump is right. As noted, it's all about ego.

And not survival?

Social survival, maybe.

[baker]

And not survival?

Social survival, maybe.

No, I mean survival altogether. It's not like in modern society, one is somehow by default spared of dying starving and homeless. Death by starvation and homelessness is a very real possibility in the US, and in increasingly more so-called first-world countries.
I think this is what primarily drives right-wingers. They are people with a sink-or-swim, eat-or-be-eaten, live-or-die mentality. And they mean this literally.

[Sy Borg]

Social survival, maybe.

No, I mean survival altogether. It's not like in modern society, one is somehow by default spared of dying starving and homeless. Death by starvation and homelessness is a very real possibility in the US, and in increasingly more so-called first-world countries.
I think this is what primarily drives right-wingers. They are people with a sink-or-swim, eat-or-be-eaten, live-or-die mentality. And they mean this literally.

Aren't those in the ghetto most at risk?

Why would anyone think that Trump would provide security and safety? His whole shtick is dog-eat-dog - and if you're the one who's eaten, that's your fault. If one is worried about survival, why vote against universal healthcare? It seems to be that there is a great scam, where the owners of capital have been rapidly replacing workers with machines or send jobs to low wage notions. Large corporations also push for high immigration rates to keep wages down. Then Trump and the Murdoch media and the like - the main capitalist mouthpiece - say that the migrants took the jobs ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHNk0-7hW3U

NEW YORK (Reuters) - When U.S. President-elect Donald Trump criticized United Technologies Corp's UTX.N Carrier unit in November for its plan to move some 800 jobs to Mexico, the parent-company made a swift decision to keep the factory in Indiana.

Yet the move did not translate into saving jobs. Instead, the company decided it would move toward automation as a way to cut costs.

“We’re going to make up [the] $16 million investment in that factory in Indianapolis to automate, to drive the cost down so that we can continue to be competitive,” chief executive Greg Hayes said on CNBC last month. “What that ultimately means is there will be fewer jobs.”

Swapping robots and software for human labor has underpinned much of the productivity gains in the United States over the last 25 years. Now, with a greater political push to keep factories at home, investors are betting that automation will gain speed in industries ranging from auto manufacturing to chicken processing to craft beer breweries.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1530JW

[chewybrian]

Social survival, maybe.

No, I mean survival altogether. It's not like in modern society, one is somehow by default spared of dying starving and homeless. Death by starvation and homelessness is a very real possibility in the US, and in increasingly more so-called first-world countries.
I think this is what primarily drives right-wingers. They are people with a sink-or-swim, eat-or-be-eaten, live-or-die mentality. And they mean this literally.

I just read this today http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Spike/0.html and it really meshes with what you said. It looks like Orwell predicted our times as well as everything else that has happened since he passed. If you want to see the same ideas fully expanded, try this book: http://www.george-orwell.org/Down_and_O ... index.html . It seems like the whole crazy system, which looks like needless suffering and punishment and wasted human effort, was designed with a purpose (though you may easily disagree with the intentions). They wanted to make life as miserable as possible for these folks to give them an incentive to go out and find work, as if they all chose to be poor.

The wastage was
astonishing; great dishes of beef, and bucketfuls of broad and
vegetables, were pitched away. like rubbish, and then defiled with
tea-leaves. I filled five dustbins to overflowing with good food. And
while I did so my fellow tramps were sitting two hundred yards away in
the spike, their bellies half filled with the spike dinner of the
everlasting bread and tea, and perhaps two cold boiled potatoes each in
honour of Sunday. It appeared that the food was thrown away from
deliberate policy, rather than that it should be given to the tramps...

Then I told him about the wastage of food in the workhouse kitchen, and
what I thought of it. And at that he changed his tune immediately. I saw
that I had awakened the pew-renter who sleeps in every English workman.
Though he had been famished. along with the rest, he at once saw reasons
why the food should have been thrown away rather than given to the tramps.
He admonished me quite severely.

'They have to do it,' he said. 'If they made these places too pleasant
you'd have all the scum of the country flocking into them. It's only the
bad food as keeps all that scum away. These tramps are too lazy to work,
that's all that's wrong with them. You don't want to go encouraging
them. They're scum.'

I produced arguments to prove him wrong, but he would not listen. He kept
repeating:

'You don't want to have any pity on these tramps--scum, they are. You
don't want to judge them by the same standards as men like you and me.
They're scum, just scum.'

It was interesting to see how subtly he disassociated himself from his
fellow tramps. He has been on the road six months. but in the sight of
God, he seemed to imply, he was not a tramp. His body might be in the
spike, but his spirit soared far away, in the pure aether of the middle
classes.