Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

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Fellowmater
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Fellowmater »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 3:40 pm I think the thread heading should be
Was Goldman Wrong about Hobbes?
I've that too. :D
Belindi
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Belindi »

HJCarden wrote: December 13th, 2020, 10:53 pm
Belindi wrote: December 11th, 2020, 9:34 am After Nietzsche we in all reason have to follow the dictum existence precedes meaning.

The moment of a man's death is the only time when, theoretically, a man knows the meaning(s) of his life. We make essence such as it will be.
Could this be a paradigm shift that would cause people to abandon such feelings? Truly a possibility, but one that I think isn't present in a lot of the things that I was talking about.

When I first reached some level of consciousness about my place in the world, I knew that I was an American, red blooded Bruce Springsteen Born in the USA, truly a part of a short, yet impressive cultural heritage. However, taking the statement in question to be true, it's only because I ascribed this meaning to my life that I then joined that search for immortality that the author and I believe are tied into one's culture and heritage.

Maybe another way to frame this question is if on a global scale people decided to live by this edict, would they not care for things such as race, religion, so on? But obviously these are all very important things to a great deal of people, so maybe its really that the vast majority of the world is unconvinced or ignorant to this idea?
Yes, your identity (race, religion, name, place of birth, belongings, loves, etc.) are who you think you are. Not only are you subject to your identity , your identity is a necessary springboard to who you might be next.(Gadamer).

There have been people, admittedly only a few, who abandoned all clinging to personal identity and gave themselves to a search for goodness, truth, or beauty. There are many more people who abandon bits of personal identity that they see to conflict with goodness , truth, or beauty. Civilised people who have access to Google do not have to be ignorant of the great possibilities of the existentialist edict.

The method for many is to begin in small ways and train oneself towards becoming an existential athlete.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Terrapin Station »

HJCarden wrote: December 13th, 2020, 10:42 pm Regardless, my main concern is not with statistical consensus, rather it is with the validity of Hobbes' conception of human nature.
The point is that human nature IS the totality of "how humans happen to be." And we need to look at how humans are to know that. We need to actually do the empirical observations.
baker
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 14th, 2020, 8:23 amThe point is that human nature IS the totality of "how humans happen to be." And we need to look at how humans are to know that. We need to actually do the empirical observations.
The result of empirical observations of humans is something chaotic, to say the least. There is so much variation among people.


I suspect that various maxims about human nature are actually instructions on how to think about human nature, not observations thereof. Similar to how "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" isn't a statement of empirical fact, but a motto one might live by, as in, 'If something doesn't kill me, I should learn from the experience and grow stronger for it, and not let it defeat me.'
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: December 14th, 2020, 8:30 am
Terrapin Station wrote: December 14th, 2020, 8:23 amThe point is that human nature IS the totality of "how humans happen to be." And we need to look at how humans are to know that. We need to actually do the empirical observations.
The result of empirical observations of humans is something chaotic, to say the least. There is so much variation among people.

I suspect that various maxims about human nature are actually instructions on how to think about human nature, not observations thereof. Similar to how "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" isn't a statement of empirical fact, but a motto one might live by, as in, 'If something doesn't kill me, I should learn from the experience and grow stronger for it, and not let it defeat me.'
In which case we should probably move this sort of stuff to the self-help section rather than the philosophy section. :wink:
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Sculptor1
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Sculptor1 »

baker wrote: December 14th, 2020, 8:30 am
Terrapin Station wrote: December 14th, 2020, 8:23 amThe point is that human nature IS the totality of "how humans happen to be." And we need to look at how humans are to know that. We need to actually do the empirical observations.
The result of empirical observations of humans is something chaotic, to say the least. There is so much variation among people.


I suspect that various maxims about human nature are actually instructions on how to think about human nature, not observations thereof. Similar to how "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" isn't a statement of empirical fact, but a motto one might live by, as in, 'If something doesn't kill me, I should learn from the experience and grow stronger for it, and not let it defeat me.'
Human nature is unobservable since we can never delete culture and ideology from the lived experience to find the pure nature beneath.
All we can do is the point to massively generalised feature of the human condition, and hope they are not learned.
These might look like: Humans kill; humans die; humans eat; humans go hungry; humans are selfish; humans are sacrificing; humans nurture; humans fear; humans are fearless - ad nauseam.
We can be sure about human have two feet, walk upright and use opposable thumbs - but beyond that we are thrashing about in the dark.
baker
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by baker »

Robert66 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 4:47 pmMy point is that we are unable to judge an individual, let alone calculate 'aggregate' 'human desires'.
And yet judging and making claims about "human nature" is very common among people.
baker
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by baker »

HJCarden wrote: December 13th, 2020, 10:42 pmWould you agree that an everlasting life in a maximally blissful paradise is an attractive feature of believing in a certain creed?
No. Things that seem to good to be true usually are too good to be true.
Im inclined to think so, and judging by the amount of the world's population that is a part of a religion that offers something like this, I think theres good evidence for some consensus.
But perhaps it's not the idea of a blissfull eternity in heaven that attracts them, but the fear of eternal damnation; the idea that their enemies will burn in hell for all eternity (while they enjoy themselves in heaven) also seems quite attractive.

Do you know of a study where Abrahamists would compare which they prefer -- divine vengeance or eternal heaven? I bet they'd prefer divine vengance. Moral indignation and the craving for vengeance seem like stronger motives than lazy Sunday afternoon pleasures.

HJCarden wrote: December 13th, 2020, 11:03 pmMaybe it is truly to our best benefit that we can't know for certain our future. I liken it to someone stuck in a dead end job, where every day is just as mediocre as the last. Why wake up, why get dressed, why go into work? Yet as a species we've worked tirelessly for control over ourselves and our environment. There has to be some hidden part of the human condition that isnt readily apparent, which is why I do not categorically accept the edict that "existence precedes essence" as was mentioned elsewhere in the forum. I cant place my finger on what exactly this essence is, and its exactly for this reason that I remain skeptical about that claim.
Existence could precede essence if humans would be born in vacuums and not raised by anyone, or at least if a person would in no way be defined by their place of birth, the culture and environment they were born and raised in, and so on.
Existentialists are obsessed with the romantic idealistic notion of "self-creation".
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Robert66
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Robert66 »

baker wrote: December 14th, 2020, 11:04 am
Robert66 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 4:47 pmMy point is that we are unable to judge an individual, let alone calculate 'aggregate' 'human desires'.
And yet judging and making claims about "human nature" is very common among people.
Unable to accurately judge, I should have written.
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