Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
evolution
Posts: 957
Joined: April 19th, 2020, 6:20 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by evolution »

Robert66 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 5:30 pm When truth is unpalatable, natural human responses range from a) commit suicide, to z) go on a shooting spree at nearest kindergarten, with h) swallowing the lie somewhere near the middle, along with DILLIGAF, "might as well Trump!" (EVH RIP ref).

Cut off their heads,
Burn the books,
Weed out the 'other',
Feed only your chooks.
But Truth is NEVER 'unpalatable'.

Thinking or believing that 'truth is unpalatable' is just ANOTHER one of those 'deceptions', which some keep telling themselves/fooling themselves with.
User avatar
Robert66
Posts: 521
Joined: April 20th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Robert66 »

evolution wrote: December 12th, 2020, 7:57 pm
Robert66 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 4:47 pm I don't remember what Hobbes said (too long ago), but I agree with Sculptor1 that, based on Hobbes' writings, the 'immortality' discussion is irrelevant, and with Terrapin Station that 'people vary a lot'. And understanding the nature of even one human is difficult. Consider for example the post by Sculptor1 in this thread. Obviously well-read and with a good understanding of the subject, Sculptor1 nevertheless suggests burning the problematic book. And who could determine the desires of Evolution (capitalised for clarity)?
EVERY one, through CLARITY, which is done through CLARIFICATION, which is achieved by just asking CLARIFYING QUESTIONS.

By the way the True 'desires' of EVERY one are the EXACT SAME, which is found VERY SIMPLY and VERY EASILY just through Honesty and CLARIFICATION.
Robert66 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 4:47 pm I confess that I cannot fully read anything by Evolution, because of the formatting, the ALL-CAPS in your face style, the paradoxical fixation with being UNDERSTOOD, and the repeated misuse of 'thee'.
So, you ALLEGE 'you' can NOT read FULLY ANY 'thing' written down by someone, because of the, so called, "formatting", the ALL-CAPS in the WRONG INTERPRETED "in your face" style, the 'paradoxical' fixation, (without EVERY KNOWING what the word 'paradoxical' ACTUALLY MEANS, from the writer), with being UNDERSTOOD, and the repeated misuse of the word 'thee', correct?

By the way, what is to be only Truly UNDERSTOOD, in what I write, is what I suggest 'you', human beings, do. That is; IF 'you' REALLY do want to UNDERSTAND each "other", thee True Self, and the WHOLE story of 'Life', Itself. See, I do NOT what to be UNDERSTOOD here, in this forum. I use this forum to SHOW future peoples how no matter how many times adult human beings are TOLD what to do and is NECESSARY to gain thee unified knowledge of Everything, they still can NOT see 'it'. As EVIDENCE and PROVEN, once again, in what you have written here.

Also, If I, supposedly, 'misuse' the word 'thee', then what is the CORRECT way to 'use' the word 'thee'?
Robert66 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 4:47 pm My point is that we are unable to judge an individual, let alone calculate 'aggregate' 'human desires'.
Is 'judge' the RIGHT WORD here?

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT in that you are UNABLE to "judge", or better still KNOW, 'another' individual IF you do NOT ask them CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, and you just 'try to' "judge" them/KNOW them by the words alone, which are being 'interpreted' by and from YOUR perspective ONLY.

KNOWING 'aggregated' 'human desires' is EXTREMELY EASY to, so call, 'calculate' once one has FULLY UNDERSTOOD the self, and thee Self, ALREADY.

Actually 'calculating' is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY as ALREADY KNOWING ALREADY exists.

By the way, and for your information, the ALL-CAPS is used, by me, to DISTRACT 'you' people, in the days of when this is being written, from thee ACTUAL 'message/s', which are within my writings. I do this so that I have thee ACTUAL EVIDENCE and PROOF, to SHOW and REVEAL to those who are prepared to LOOK and LEARN, that the ACTUAL MESSAGES can be CLEARLY SEEN in these words that I have used. However, because of how the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORK, the human beings in the days of when this is being written just can NOT SEE 'them'.

Although the MESSAGES are written VERY CLEARLY the ability for human beings to be able to deceive and fool "themselves" can override human beings from SEEING thee ACTUAL Truth of things even when It is 'staring 'you' in the face'. To SHOW, with PROOF, of just how this DECEPTION actually takes place I used 'you', posters, and "volunteers", in this forum, in the days of when this is being written.

But that is enough about 'me'.

Back to the topic, 'human nature' is ALREADY KNOWN, and this is HOW I will ACHIEVE what 'it' IS, which EVERY human being Truly WANTS and DESIRES.
So glad you clarified, evolution, not just for me but for all humans who, in these days, cannot see 'thee ACTUAL Truth of things even when It is 'staring [them] ... in the face''. Just to clarify a little more: that would be ALL other humans, evolution? Do you ever feel lonely, or misunderstood, being the only human in possession of 'thee ACTUAL Truth of things'? I only ask because it seems from your writings that there is a tension between your desire to DISTRACT and to CLARIFY, which may be due to boredom associated with omniscience.

EMPHASIS, through CAPITALISATION, is LOST when OVERUSED, as is CLARITY, as ILLUSTRATED by THIS sentence.
User avatar
Robert66
Posts: 521
Joined: April 20th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Robert66 »

evolution wrote: December 12th, 2020, 8:00 pm
Robert66 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 5:30 pm When truth is unpalatable, natural human responses range from a) commit suicide, to z) go on a shooting spree at nearest kindergarten, with h) swallowing the lie somewhere near the middle, along with DILLIGAF, "might as well Trump!" (EVH RIP ref).

Cut off their heads,
Burn the books,
Weed out the 'other',
Feed only your chooks.
But Truth is NEVER 'unpalatable'.

Thinking or believing that 'truth is unpalatable' is just ANOTHER one of those 'deceptions', which some keep telling themselves/fooling themselves with.
Truth is NEVER unpalatable? Even for those living below sea level in New Orleans, with Katrina bearing down on them? Or the drug addicts living on sidewalks in Venice Beach, L.A., or displaced Rohingyas, or Muslim Uyghurs in China, or Tutsis in Rwanda listening to radio announcements describing their kind as pigs to be slaughtered by the Hutu majority, or the people of Kiribati, Tuvalu, the Maldives, or Marshall Islands, who will probably lose their homes to sea level rise this century?
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Sculptor1 »

evolution wrote: December 12th, 2020, 8:00 pm
Robert66 wrote: December 11th, 2020, 5:30 pm When truth is unpalatable, natural human responses range from a) commit suicide, to z) go on a shooting spree at nearest kindergarten, with h) swallowing the lie somewhere near the middle, along with DILLIGAF, "might as well Trump!" (EVH RIP ref).

Cut off their heads,
Burn the books,
Weed out the 'other',
Feed only your chooks.
But Truth is NEVER 'unpalatable'.

Your problem is that you'd not know a truth is you were choking on it.
evolution
Posts: 957
Joined: April 19th, 2020, 6:20 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by evolution »

Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 3:23 pm
evolution wrote: December 12th, 2020, 7:57 pm

EVERY one, through CLARITY, which is done through CLARIFICATION, which is achieved by just asking CLARIFYING QUESTIONS.

By the way the True 'desires' of EVERY one are the EXACT SAME, which is found VERY SIMPLY and VERY EASILY just through Honesty and CLARIFICATION.



So, you ALLEGE 'you' can NOT read FULLY ANY 'thing' written down by someone, because of the, so called, "formatting", the ALL-CAPS in the WRONG INTERPRETED "in your face" style, the 'paradoxical' fixation, (without EVERY KNOWING what the word 'paradoxical' ACTUALLY MEANS, from the writer), with being UNDERSTOOD, and the repeated misuse of the word 'thee', correct?

By the way, what is to be only Truly UNDERSTOOD, in what I write, is what I suggest 'you', human beings, do. That is; IF 'you' REALLY do want to UNDERSTAND each "other", thee True Self, and the WHOLE story of 'Life', Itself. See, I do NOT what to be UNDERSTOOD here, in this forum. I use this forum to SHOW future peoples how no matter how many times adult human beings are TOLD what to do and is NECESSARY to gain thee unified knowledge of Everything, they still can NOT see 'it'. As EVIDENCE and PROVEN, once again, in what you have written here.

Also, If I, supposedly, 'misuse' the word 'thee', then what is the CORRECT way to 'use' the word 'thee'?



Is 'judge' the RIGHT WORD here?

You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT in that you are UNABLE to "judge", or better still KNOW, 'another' individual IF you do NOT ask them CLARIFYING QUESTIONS, and you just 'try to' "judge" them/KNOW them by the words alone, which are being 'interpreted' by and from YOUR perspective ONLY.

KNOWING 'aggregated' 'human desires' is EXTREMELY EASY to, so call, 'calculate' once one has FULLY UNDERSTOOD the self, and thee Self, ALREADY.

Actually 'calculating' is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY as ALREADY KNOWING ALREADY exists.

By the way, and for your information, the ALL-CAPS is used, by me, to DISTRACT 'you' people, in the days of when this is being written, from thee ACTUAL 'message/s', which are within my writings. I do this so that I have thee ACTUAL EVIDENCE and PROOF, to SHOW and REVEAL to those who are prepared to LOOK and LEARN, that the ACTUAL MESSAGES can be CLEARLY SEEN in these words that I have used. However, because of how the Mind and the brain ACTUALLY WORK, the human beings in the days of when this is being written just can NOT SEE 'them'.

Although the MESSAGES are written VERY CLEARLY the ability for human beings to be able to deceive and fool "themselves" can override human beings from SEEING thee ACTUAL Truth of things even when It is 'staring 'you' in the face'. To SHOW, with PROOF, of just how this DECEPTION actually takes place I used 'you', posters, and "volunteers", in this forum, in the days of when this is being written.

But that is enough about 'me'.

Back to the topic, 'human nature' is ALREADY KNOWN, and this is HOW I will ACHIEVE what 'it' IS, which EVERY human being Truly WANTS and DESIRES.
So glad you clarified, evolution, not just for me but for all humans who, in these days, cannot see 'thee ACTUAL Truth of things even when It is 'staring [them] ... in the face''.
What is 'it', exactly, which you are alleging here, I "have clarified"?
Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 3:23 pm Just to clarify a little more: that would be ALL other humans, evolution?
When, and if, you learn how to answer the question, 'Who am 'I'?', properly AND correctly, then 'you' will KNOW thee ACTUAL answer to this question.

But, for me to be able to answer this question, now, properly AND correctly, for 'you', so that you can FULLY UNDERSTAND my answer would take far more work than one of us would probably be prepared to take on.

Are 'you' at all OPEN to the fact that what 'you' are ASSUMING, or BELIEVING, here could ACTUALLY be TOTALLY and COMPLETELY WRONG?

If yes, then could proceed.

However, if no, than far more work would be necessary, and to much work that would actually bring about an outcome in a 'timely fashion'.
Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 3:23 pm Do you ever feel lonely, or misunderstood, being the only human in possession of 'thee ACTUAL Truth of things'?
But EVERY human being is in possession of 'thee ACTUAL Truth of things'. But NOT EVERY one consciously KNOWS what they are in possession of. Just like NOT EVERY one even KNOWS who and what they are, exactly, YET.
Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 3:23 pm I only ask because it seems from your writings that there is a tension between your desire to DISTRACT and to CLARIFY, which may be due to boredom associated with omniscience.
Any perceived "tension" is Truly NOT due to ANY "boredom" at all. There is a VERY GOOD REASON behind ALL of this.

Remember that I also did ACTUALLY CLEARLY WRITE that I am purposely DISTRACTING 'you', human beings, in the days of when this is being written, from thee ACTUAL MESSAGES, within these writings. So, this is NOT what just 'seems' to be in my writings, this is what IS ACTUALLY in my writings. I made this VERY CLEAR, as evidenced AND proven above.

Also, I EXPLAINED WHY I am ACTUALLY doing this. And, to reiterate, it is NOT because of 'boredom'.
Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 3:23 pm EMPHASIS, through CAPITALISATION, is LOST when OVERUSED, as is CLARITY, as ILLUSTRATED by THIS sentence.
But emphasis is NOT necessarily lost through capitalization when, supposedly and allegedly, overused, nor is clarity necessarily lost through capitalization when, supposedly and allegedly, overused. 'Overused' is a Truly 'relative' word, by the way.

To me, YOUR SENTENCE is VERY CLEAR and VERY EASY and SIMPLE to UNDERSTAND. Although your sentence might not be necessarily True, Right, nor Correct at all, what you are saying AND meaning is ILLUSTRATED VERY CLEARLY, no matter how many capital letters you use in it.

If, however, 'you' BELIEVE that what you wrote there is true, right, and correct, then so be it. But what ACTUAL EVIDENCE or PROOF do you have for your CLAIM, and BELIEF?

Of course, 'you', "robert66", can CLAIM that an 'overuse' has been made, but MAYBE MORE EMPHASIS is ACTUALLY NEEDED FAR MORE than you can, so far, SEE and ACTUALLY RECOGNIZE.

We will just have to WAIT and SEE.
User avatar
Robert66
Posts: 521
Joined: April 20th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Robert66 »

You left one capital out: my moniker is Robert66, not "robert66". Your overuse, and occasional lack, of capital letters is a problem for comprehension of which you appear to be ignorant. You may KEEP ADDING CAPITALISED WORDS as MUCH as YOU LIKE but KNOW that YOUR MESSAGE is not, NOR WILL IT PROBABLY EVER BE, UNDERSTOOD because READERS will JUST GIVE UP, and CONCLUDE that EVEN IF there is a MESSAGE to be UNDERSTOOD, it is NOT WORTH the TROUBLE of TRYING to DECIPHER.
evolution
Posts: 957
Joined: April 19th, 2020, 6:20 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by evolution »

Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 3:40 pm
evolution wrote: December 12th, 2020, 8:00 pm

But Truth is NEVER 'unpalatable'.

Thinking or believing that 'truth is unpalatable' is just ANOTHER one of those 'deceptions', which some keep telling themselves/fooling themselves with.
Truth is NEVER unpalatable?
Are you asking to CLARIFY, AGAIN?

If yes, then YES, Truth is NEVER ACTUALLY 'unpalatable'. Although some find Truth very hard to "taste", and "swallow", Truth is still what 'It' IS.
Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 3:40 pm Even for those living below sea level in New Orleans, with Katrina bearing down on them?
I am NOT SURE what 'you' are ACTUALLY ASKING here.

If one is living in a place where a hurricane/cyclone/typhoon is 'coming' towards them, then a hurricane/typhoon/cyclone is 'coming' towards them.

What is, supposedly, "unpalatable" about this Truth? It IS thee Truth, and there is NOTHING none of 'you', human beings, can do about hurricanes/typhoons/cyclones, themselves.

Remember words like "below sea level" and "bearing down on them" are just words to cause an 'emotive' response, which helps in creating an atmosphere of 'being unpalatable'.

Most human beings live on earth, itself. They are NOT necessarily 'stuck' in just 'one solitary place' on earth. But, if they are 'stuck' in one place, then so be it. Therefore, no matter where one finds them self, on earth, when a stronger than usual wind coming towards them, then that is; just what thee ACTUAL Truth IS.

If one is 'stuck' and the wind is coming towards them, then that is what IS happening. It does NOT matter if ANY one finds this 'unpalatable', or even 'palatable', this is THEE Truth. If there is NOTHING that one can do, then this is THEE Truth.
Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 3:40 pm Or the drug addicts living on sidewalks in Venice Beach, L.A., or displaced Rohingyas, or Muslim Uyghurs in China, or Tutsis in Rwanda listening to radio announcements describing their kind as pigs to be slaughtered by the Hutu majority, or the people of Kiribati, Tuvalu, the Maldives, or Marshall Islands, who will probably lose their homes to sea level rise this century?
Earth IS THEE ONLY, lifetime, inhabitable 'home' to 'you', human beings. As an adult where 'you' CHOOSE to live, on earth, is YOUR CHOICE, alone. If, however, some of 'you', adult human beings, CHOOSE where other human beings can, or cannot live, must, or must not live, then that is what they do.

Remember this is THEE 'world', which 'you', adult human beings, have created, for yourselves. So, if you find THIS 'world' 'unpalatable', then I suggest 'you' just do what is NECESSARY to change THIS 'world'.

I have ALREADY EXPLAINED what IS NECESSARY and HOW this CHANGE can be done.

'You' either CHOOSE to LOOK AT and LISTEN to 'this' or CHOOSE not to. I will NOT make YOUR DECISIONS for 'you'.
evolution
Posts: 957
Joined: April 19th, 2020, 6:20 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by evolution »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 4:19 pm
evolution wrote: December 12th, 2020, 8:00 pm

But Truth is NEVER 'unpalatable'.

Your problem is that you'd not know a truth is you were choking on it.
Okay, if you say so.
evolution
Posts: 957
Joined: April 19th, 2020, 6:20 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by evolution »

Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 6:25 pm You left one capital out: my moniker is Robert66, not "robert66".
I left it out PURPOSELY, as I have with EVERY other name 'you', human beings, give "yourselves". The REASON WHY I actually do this will become VERY CLEAR and FULLY UNDERSTOOD, later on.
Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 6:25 pm Your overuse, and occasional lack, of capital letters is a problem for comprehension of which you appear to be ignorant.
Or, just MAYBE you are NOT FULLY AWARE of WHY I write EXACTLY the way I do write.

And, if this is ALL you have got to "point out" and "pick on", then so be it.

Remember, as I have PREVIOUSLY STATED, I am NOT necessarily writing FOR 'you', human beings, which existed in the days of when this was being written. This, also, will become MORE CLEARER and BETTER UNDERSTOOD later on as human beings evolve MORE.
Robert66 wrote: December 13th, 2020, 6:25 pm You may KEEP ADDING CAPITALISED WORDS as MUCH as YOU LIKE but KNOW that YOUR MESSAGE is not, NOR WILL IT PROBABLY EVER BE, UNDERSTOOD because READERS will JUST GIVE UP, and CONCLUDE that EVEN IF there is a MESSAGE to be UNDERSTOOD, it is NOT WORTH the TROUBLE of TRYING to DECIPHER.
LOL If 'you' can NOT decipher THEE ACTUAL MESSAGE, within writings, (or just could not be bothered) just because some letters are capitalized and some are NOT, then so be it. But do 'you' REALLY BELIEVE that 'you' have the ABILITY to speak for EVERY one else?

By the way, to the younger generation you are Truly 'showing your AGE', here.

Have you ever actually read the text, THEE MESSAGES, that younger ones send to each other? They can UNDERSTAND them VERY EASILY, no matter how many capitalized letters are used or NOT used.

I will suggest now that if what I write is just 'way to hard', for you, to "decipher" and "understand" then best you just 'give up', now. By the way, i hope that capitalized 'I' in that last sentence was not to 'troublesome', for you, and did not make that sentence to hard for you TO UNDERSTAND.

Talk about 'human nature', your preference to LOOK AT what I write and especially the way I write that, and then to include at an attempt at an 'insult' AT 'me' as well, INSTEAD of just LOOKING AT the ACTUAL message/s AND the context within what I write is a VERY HUMAN ADULT thing to do, by the way. Although this "behavior" is a LEARNED human behavior and NOT a "NATURAL" human behavior it is still a VERY COMMON behavior among 'you', adult human beings, and a behavior that still exists within philosophical discussions, which is the VERY LAST PLACE I would expect to SEE such behavior.
User avatar
Robert66
Posts: 521
Joined: April 20th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by Robert66 »

'LOL If 'you' can NOT decipher THEE ACTUAL MESSAGE, within writings, (or just could not be bothered) just because some letters are capitalized and some are NOT, then so be it. But do 'you' REALLY BELIEVE that 'you' have the ABILITY to speak for EVERY one else?

By the way, to the younger generation you are Truly 'showing your AGE', here.

Have you ever actually read the text, THEE MESSAGES, that younger ones send to each other? They can UNDERSTAND them VERY EASILY, no matter how many capitalized letters are used or NOT used.

I will suggest now that if what I write is just 'way to hard', for you, to "decipher" and "understand" then best you just 'give up', now. By the way, i hope that capitalized 'I' in that last sentence was not to 'troublesome', for you, and did not make that sentence to hard for you TO UNDERSTAND.

Talk about 'human nature', your preference to LOOK AT what I write and especially the way I write that, and then to include at an attempt at an 'insult' AT 'me' as well, INSTEAD of just LOOKING AT the ACTUAL message/s AND the context within what I write is a VERY HUMAN ADULT thing to do, by the way. Although this "behavior" is a LEARNED human behavior and NOT a "NATURAL" human behavior it is still a VERY COMMON behavior among 'you', adult human beings, and a behavior that still exists within philosophical discussions, which is the VERY LAST PLACE I would expect to SEE such behavior.'

This is music to my ears. Unfortunately it still sounds like an Elephant playing piano.
HJCarden
Posts: 137
Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by HJCarden »

hegel wrote: December 11th, 2020, 1:24 am Have to go with Hobbes. I have never wanted immortality and do not even understand the desire for it. I think it is just fear of death and the unknown.

I don't think Hobbes wanted to suppress religious impulses but neither did he think the political states should be concerned with the desire for immortality.
Do you think that any of the above described ways of seeking immortality are just a way to cope with this fear? Or are they responding to a different desire? I feel like there is a lot of explanatory power in what you're saying, but to me I feel that even if I was unafraid of, and totally accepting of death (in some sort of stoic fashion) that I'd still want to have my effects reach farther than just my life.
HJCarden
Posts: 137
Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by HJCarden »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: December 11th, 2020, 8:28 am The problem with immortality is that we eventually run out of space and resources and end up crowded and starving forever. So, each life is both temporary and recyclable.
What I'm referring to here is immortality vary shades.

The immortality that is promised in the Judeo-Christian conception of heaven is limitless beyond time and space.
The degree of immortality afforded by national identity is much more limited, but still quite powerful. Saying something like "I'm an American" would hold weight if the USA is still in existence when it was said, but in a far distant future if America is non existent, then that statement would be non-sensical, and America would be a dead civilization, meaning whatever sort of legacy it could have offered is gone.
HJCarden
Posts: 137
Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by HJCarden »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 11th, 2020, 12:22 pm People vary a lot. If we're going to make comments about what most people are like, we'd better have very extensive survey data, and that survey data had better be very methodologically sound. Part of the methodological soundness would require that we somehow figure out a way to observe people under a wide variety of circumstances, over a long period of time (because not only do individuals vary from each other, but a single individual will vary over time and circumstance), where the person isn't aware of being observed, and where we still have some means of observing what they're thinking/feeling.
While this would be ideal, I think theres lots of conclusions we can pretty soundly draw from simple observation.
Would you agree that an everlasting life in a maximally blissful paradise is an attractive feature of believing in a certain creed? Im inclined to think so, and judging by the amount of the world's population that is a part of a religion that offers something like this, I think theres good evidence for some consensus.

Regardless, my main concern is not with statistical consensus, rather it is with the validity of Hobbes' conception of human nature. What behaviors that might seem irrational if we look at human behavior like Hobbes can be explain with this author's hypothesis? He believes that Islamic terrorism as we know it in the present day is not a result of the west depleting the resources of the Middle East or some cultural clash, but rather due to wanting to "go out in a blaze of glory" as their culture is, in their view, on the verge of disappearing.

To keep looking in Hobbes' conclusions based on this possibly faulty sense of human nature, where does this leave his Leviathan? The Leviathan is given complete control in order to quell the violent state of nature that we are supposedly born into, but is this desire for immortality why people historically have revolted against monarchs? A population with their physical needs met, but not this strange spiritual need would be willing to shun this fearsome ruler, for despite their guarantee of safety, a different deep need is not being met.
HJCarden
Posts: 137
Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by HJCarden »

Belindi wrote: December 11th, 2020, 9:34 am After Nietzsche we in all reason have to follow the dictum existence precedes meaning.

The moment of a man's death is the only time when, theoretically, a man knows the meaning(s) of his life. We make essence such as it will be.
Could this be a paradigm shift that would cause people to abandon such feelings? Truly a possibility, but one that I think isn't present in a lot of the things that I was talking about.

When I first reached some level of consciousness about my place in the world, I knew that I was an American, red blooded Bruce Springsteen Born in the USA, truly a part of a short, yet impressive cultural heritage. However, taking the statement in question to be true, it's only because I ascribed this meaning to my life that I then joined that search for immortality that the author and I believe are tied into one's culture and heritage.

Maybe another way to frame this question is if on a global scale people decided to live by this edict, would they not care for things such as race, religion, so on? But obviously these are all very important things to a great deal of people, so maybe its really that the vast majority of the world is unconvinced or ignorant to this idea?
HJCarden
Posts: 137
Joined: November 18th, 2020, 12:22 am

Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?

Post by HJCarden »

impermanence wrote: December 11th, 2020, 3:21 pm I always kind of thought that people would go immediately insane based on either of the following conditions...the first being that they had achieved immortality, and the second that they knew what the future held. Perhaps this is why we are wired such that we can not know such things?

Seems reasonable to assume that what makes life worth living is the unknown [the unknowable].
Those are intuitions that I've had too, and it creates a great irony in the human condition.

We fear death greatly, but we almost need it. Would you really be happy if your favorite TV show never ended? Or is it given greater value by its finitude? Would we stop valuing life if it were endless?

Is it the uncertainty of our future that holds our heads together in some strange way? As a species we've shown great passion for controlling our environment and making life predictable, but is this drive just rooted only out of basic animal desires? If so, this irony would be solved by admitting to ourselves that we have some desires that are not of our body, or at least ones that often get overriden by other bodily desires.

Maybe it is truly to our best benefit that we can't know for certain our future. I liken it to someone stuck in a dead end job, where every day is just as mediocre as the last. Why wake up, why get dressed, why go into work? Yet as a species we've worked tirelessly for control over ourselves and our environment. There has to be some hidden part of the human condition that isnt readily apparent, which is why I do not categorically accept the edict that "existence precedes essence" as was mentioned elsewhere in the forum. I cant place my finger on what exactly this essence is, and its exactly for this reason that I remain skeptical about that claim.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021