I've that too.
Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?
Yes, your identity (race, religion, name, place of birth, belongings, loves, etc.) are who you think you are. Not only are you subject to your identity , your identity is a necessary springboard to who you might be next.(Gadamer).HJCarden wrote: ↑December 13th, 2020, 10:53 pmCould this be a paradigm shift that would cause people to abandon such feelings? Truly a possibility, but one that I think isn't present in a lot of the things that I was talking about.
When I first reached some level of consciousness about my place in the world, I knew that I was an American, red blooded Bruce Springsteen Born in the USA, truly a part of a short, yet impressive cultural heritage. However, taking the statement in question to be true, it's only because I ascribed this meaning to my life that I then joined that search for immortality that the author and I believe are tied into one's culture and heritage.
Maybe another way to frame this question is if on a global scale people decided to live by this edict, would they not care for things such as race, religion, so on? But obviously these are all very important things to a great deal of people, so maybe its really that the vast majority of the world is unconvinced or ignorant to this idea?
There have been people, admittedly only a few, who abandoned all clinging to personal identity and gave themselves to a search for goodness, truth, or beauty. There are many more people who abandon bits of personal identity that they see to conflict with goodness , truth, or beauty. Civilised people who have access to Google do not have to be ignorant of the great possibilities of the existentialist edict.
The method for many is to begin in small ways and train oneself towards becoming an existential athlete.
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?
The point is that human nature IS the totality of "how humans happen to be." And we need to look at how humans are to know that. We need to actually do the empirical observations.
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?
The result of empirical observations of humans is something chaotic, to say the least. There is so much variation among people.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑December 14th, 2020, 8:23 amThe point is that human nature IS the totality of "how humans happen to be." And we need to look at how humans are to know that. We need to actually do the empirical observations.
I suspect that various maxims about human nature are actually instructions on how to think about human nature, not observations thereof. Similar to how "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" isn't a statement of empirical fact, but a motto one might live by, as in, 'If something doesn't kill me, I should learn from the experience and grow stronger for it, and not let it defeat me.'
- Terrapin Station
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?
In which case we should probably move this sort of stuff to the self-help section rather than the philosophy section.baker wrote: ↑December 14th, 2020, 8:30 amThe result of empirical observations of humans is something chaotic, to say the least. There is so much variation among people.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑December 14th, 2020, 8:23 amThe point is that human nature IS the totality of "how humans happen to be." And we need to look at how humans are to know that. We need to actually do the empirical observations.
I suspect that various maxims about human nature are actually instructions on how to think about human nature, not observations thereof. Similar to how "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" isn't a statement of empirical fact, but a motto one might live by, as in, 'If something doesn't kill me, I should learn from the experience and grow stronger for it, and not let it defeat me.'
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?
Human nature is unobservable since we can never delete culture and ideology from the lived experience to find the pure nature beneath.baker wrote: ↑December 14th, 2020, 8:30 amThe result of empirical observations of humans is something chaotic, to say the least. There is so much variation among people.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑December 14th, 2020, 8:23 amThe point is that human nature IS the totality of "how humans happen to be." And we need to look at how humans are to know that. We need to actually do the empirical observations.
I suspect that various maxims about human nature are actually instructions on how to think about human nature, not observations thereof. Similar to how "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" isn't a statement of empirical fact, but a motto one might live by, as in, 'If something doesn't kill me, I should learn from the experience and grow stronger for it, and not let it defeat me.'
All we can do is the point to massively generalised feature of the human condition, and hope they are not learned.
These might look like: Humans kill; humans die; humans eat; humans go hungry; humans are selfish; humans are sacrificing; humans nurture; humans fear; humans are fearless - ad nauseam.
We can be sure about human have two feet, walk upright and use opposable thumbs - but beyond that we are thrashing about in the dark.
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?
No. Things that seem to good to be true usually are too good to be true.
But perhaps it's not the idea of a blissfull eternity in heaven that attracts them, but the fear of eternal damnation; the idea that their enemies will burn in hell for all eternity (while they enjoy themselves in heaven) also seems quite attractive.Im inclined to think so, and judging by the amount of the world's population that is a part of a religion that offers something like this, I think theres good evidence for some consensus.
Do you know of a study where Abrahamists would compare which they prefer -- divine vengeance or eternal heaven? I bet they'd prefer divine vengance. Moral indignation and the craving for vengeance seem like stronger motives than lazy Sunday afternoon pleasures.
Existence could precede essence if humans would be born in vacuums and not raised by anyone, or at least if a person would in no way be defined by their place of birth, the culture and environment they were born and raised in, and so on.HJCarden wrote: ↑December 13th, 2020, 11:03 pmMaybe it is truly to our best benefit that we can't know for certain our future. I liken it to someone stuck in a dead end job, where every day is just as mediocre as the last. Why wake up, why get dressed, why go into work? Yet as a species we've worked tirelessly for control over ourselves and our environment. There has to be some hidden part of the human condition that isnt readily apparent, which is why I do not categorically accept the edict that "existence precedes essence" as was mentioned elsewhere in the forum. I cant place my finger on what exactly this essence is, and its exactly for this reason that I remain skeptical about that claim.
Existentialists are obsessed with the romantic idealistic notion of "self-creation".
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Re: Was Hobbes Mistaken about Human Nature?
Unable to accurately judge, I should have written.
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