"Morality" quiz
- LuckyR
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"Morality" quiz
To do the "test" you must give your honest opinion about morals and honesty of the four characters in our story of Sherwood Forest. Forget any preconceived ideas you may about them - this is a different sort of story from all the others. Ready?
The Sheriff of Nottingham captured Little John and Robin Hood and imprisoned them in his maximum-security dungeon. Maid Marion begged the Sheriff for their release, pleading her love for Robin. The Sheriff agreed to release them only if Maid Marion spent the night with him. To this she agreed. The next morning the Sheriff released his prisoners. Robin at once demanded that Marion tell him how she persuaded the Sheriff to let them go free. Marion confessed the truth, and was bewildered when Robin abused her, called her a slut, and said that he never wanted to see her again. At this Little John defended her, inviting her to leave Sherwood with him and promising lifelong devotion. She accepted and they rode away together.
Now in terms of realistic everyday standards of behavior, put Robin, Marion, Little John, and the Sheriff in the order in which you consider they showed the most morality. There is no "right" answer, and I'll give the psychologist's analysis for you.
- Sculptor1
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Re: "Morality" quiz
The one always asking about the possibility of objective morality.
For my money people are people and act according to their feelings and self interest.
Sheriff has his duty
Robin and John are criminals
Marion tries to do her best
- LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz
Just to clarify, the Sheriff's duty is obviously to arrest Robin and John, what are your thought's on his choice of release "payment"? Also are Robin and John equal in your eyes? Does Marion rate below the Sheriff or above?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 17th, 2020, 6:06 pm I think this question needs to be asked on the other Forum.
The one always asking about the possibility of objective morality.
For my money people are people and act according to their feelings and self interest.
Sheriff has his duty
Robin and John are criminals
Marion tries to do her best
- Terrapin Station
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Re: "Morality" quiz
Aside from that, there's not enough information to make a moral judgment about most aspects of the story. For example, since we're supposed to forget all preconceived notions about the content, we have no idea why Little John and Robin Hood were imprisoned. Was it a just imprisonment in our opinions? Who knows. We have no idea what the characters did. And that also doesn't give us much to go on re assessing whether we morally agree with the sheriff releasing the prisoners just because someone spent the night with him. (You should also be more explicit if this involved sex--if we're not supposed to come to the story with any preconceptions.)
Re the notion of people reaching a bargain on their own terms, I have no problem with that. It's consensual behavior.
And I do have a problem with Robin acting the way he did in response to a consensual agreement that others reached. I'm also not a fan of monogamy in general. I'm pro-polyamory, open relationships, etc.
- Terrapin Station
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Re: "Morality" quiz
Now, how we feel about this morally is likely going to be different based on whether, say:
(a) Bill is a serial killer who we can guarantee is going to kill again if he's freed.
(b) Bill was simply arrested for being drunk & disorderly
- Sy Borg
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Re: "Morality" quiz
What if the thefts result in a brutal crackdown and power grab? Robin and his men may end up causing more ill than good. However, if that crackdown lead to an uprising against tyranny, then it may be good. If deaths and damage during the transition are not high (by usual revolutionary standards) and the new government values probity over self-aggrandisement, then the Merry men may end up doing good.
Yet, if the Sheriff was able to continue without Robin's interference, the situation for the county might have reached a point where the people learned valuable lessons about power, allowing them to elect a better leader when they come to power than if they rose up earlier.
Meanwhile, depending on whether one is socially conservative or not, Robin was either an ungrateful misogynist or a normally moral man.
Depending on whether one is socially conservative or not, John was either a cuckold or a normally moral man.
Depending on whether one is socially conservative or not, Marion was either a slut or strongly moral, selflessly sacrificing her dignity for others.
Along with sexual blackmail, there's the small matter of whether a prisoner should be freed just because a powerful and influential woman loves him.
The shenanigans of great apes ...
- LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz
Sheriff engages in sexual extortion.
Robin drops girlfriend for sleeping with jailor to get him out of jail.
Marion sleeps with the jailor to get her boyfriend out of jail.
John reaches out to his friend's spurned girlfriend.
IMO from most to least, LJ, MM, RH, SN
- LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz
Remember this is not a judgment of four ficticious characters, it is a measure of your relative view of different types of behavior.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑December 17th, 2020, 7:53 pm So, "most morality" is a bogus idea in my opinion, first off. Everyone engages in behavior mostly according to their own moral views. Someone's not "less moral" just because they have moral stances that are different than our own.
Aside from that, there's not enough information to make a moral judgment about most aspects of the story. For example, since we're supposed to forget all preconceived notions about the content, we have no idea why Little John and Robin Hood were imprisoned. Was it a just imprisonment in our opinions? Who knows. We have no idea what the characters did. And that also doesn't give us much to go on re assessing whether we morally agree with the sheriff releasing the prisoners just because someone spent the night with him. (You should also be more explicit if this involved sex--if we're not supposed to come to the story with any preconceptions.)
Re the notion of people reaching a bargain on their own terms, I have no problem with that. It's consensual behavior.
And I do have a problem with Robin acting the way he did in response to a consensual agreement that others reached. I'm also not a fan of monogamy in general. I'm pro-polyamory, open relationships, etc.
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Re: "Morality" quiz
In terms of moral realism:
Marion: worst, because she sacrificed herself for her boyfriend, and she is besmirched for the rest of her life by this sacrifice
Little John: wuss, very bad, because he picks up what other people threw away
Robin: wuss, he was right to discard Marion, but wrong to accept her sacrifice
Sheriff: good, because he comes out the winner in the sex situation, but bad because he released criminals
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Re: "Morality" quiz
US Politics:
SN = Trump.
RH = Michael Flynn? Ken Paxton?
MM = er, Sidney Powell? Stormy Daniels? Rudy Giuliani? The entire Republican Party?
LJ = er, don't know. Any ideas?
Perhaps Nottingham County Council should investigate the Sheriff for abuse of his pardon power.
UK Politics:
SN = Boris Johnson.
RH = All the fish in the North Sea.
MM = Michel Barnier?
LJ = The sunlit uplands? (Sorry, that one's a bit abstract.)
- Sculptor1
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Re: "Morality" quiz
The Sheriff is also a sucker for love? We do not really know but he could just be a lethario, or genuinely love Marion.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 17th, 2020, 6:45 pmJust to clarify, the Sheriff's duty is obviously to arrest Robin and John, what are your thought's on his choice of release "payment"? Also are Robin and John equal in your eyes? Does Marion rate below the Sheriff or above?Sculptor1 wrote: ↑December 17th, 2020, 6:06 pm I think this question needs to be asked on the other Forum.
The one always asking about the possibility of objective morality.
For my money people are people and act according to their feelings and self interest.
Sheriff has his duty
Robin and John are criminals
Marion tries to do her best
I would not rate them on a scale by as persons since I cannot know their deeper motivations. Politically I am all for Robin and upset at his rejecting Marion's sacrifice. But then maybe Marion is not the nice girl she pretends to be? She might just be looking to serve herself the best "john" as it were.
I wish John and Marion every happiness.
Judgments are not possible on the bare facts. Objective moral criteria cannot be used here.
- Sculptor1
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Re: "Morality" quiz
I think Boris Johnson it SH and MM combined. He's enjoying screwing himself, because he loves himself so much. RH is Barnier, honourable and moral, but willing to screw Boris as MM when it suits him and steal from Boris as SN.Steve3007 wrote: ↑December 18th, 2020, 6:42 am I'll have a go at satire.
US Politics:
SN = Trump.
RH = Michael Flynn? Ken Paxton?
MM = er, Sidney Powell? Stormy Daniels? Rudy Giuliani? The entire Republican Party?
LJ = er, don't know. Any ideas?
Perhaps Nottingham County Council should investigate the Sheriff for abuse of his pardon power.
UK Politics:
SN = Boris Johnson.
RH = All the fish in the North Sea.
MM = Michel Barnier?
LJ = The sunlit uplands? (Sorry, that one's a bit abstract.)
LJ??? Mybe that is all the offshore accountants that are going to laugh all the way to the bank with Bojo hand in hand.
- Terrapin Station
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Re: "Morality" quiz
Right. Again, there's not enough info. One of the most important things we need to know is why the people were jailed. That makes a big difference re how I morally judge the jailer. The jailer might have done something immoral in jailing the individuals in the first place. Or he might be doing something immoral in letting them go free. Or it could be relatively neutral. To me, that's the biggest issue here.LuckyR wrote: ↑December 18th, 2020, 4:16 amRemember this is not a judgment of four ficticious characters, it is a measure of your relative view of different types of behavior.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑December 17th, 2020, 7:53 pm So, "most morality" is a bogus idea in my opinion, first off. Everyone engages in behavior mostly according to their own moral views. Someone's not "less moral" just because they have moral stances that are different than our own.
Aside from that, there's not enough information to make a moral judgment about most aspects of the story. For example, since we're supposed to forget all preconceived notions about the content, we have no idea why Little John and Robin Hood were imprisoned. Was it a just imprisonment in our opinions? Who knows. We have no idea what the characters did. And that also doesn't give us much to go on re assessing whether we morally agree with the sheriff releasing the prisoners just because someone spent the night with him. (You should also be more explicit if this involved sex--if we're not supposed to come to the story with any preconceptions.)
Re the notion of people reaching a bargain on their own terms, I have no problem with that. It's consensual behavior.
And I do have a problem with Robin acting the way he did in response to a consensual agreement that others reached. I'm also not a fan of monogamy in general. I'm pro-polyamory, open relationships, etc.
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Re: "Morality" quiz
To give an example of what I mean, suppose that Maid Marion and Robin Hood have sworn that they would be together and would be sexually exclusive. If that is the case, then she broke her word. If that is not the case, then she did not break her word. But which is it? The story does not tell us what their relationship is, and what obligations they already have.
Also, when Robin Hood "abuses her", does that just mean verbally, as in the next phrase, or does it mean something more? And with him calling her a "slut", is this the first time that she has cheated on Robin Hood (if it was cheating; we do not know what their relationship is, if we take seriously the instruction to "Forget any preconceived ideas you may about them")?
Also, honesty and morality are not the same thing. One could be very immoral while being honest. (E.g., "yes, I enjoy roasting children alive on a fire and eating them; the flavor is better if they cook while alive, as the meat is fresher.") Though, as far as we can tell from the story, the only character who is dishonest is the sheriff, as he is not doing his duty as sheriff properly, so he was dishonest in taking the job, as presumably he swore to uphold the law.
The only one I have much of an opinion about is the sheriff, as he is obviously corrupt and not properly doing the job of sheriff. If he was right to jail the men, then he ought not let them go and should keep them for trial or whatever. Regardless of whether he was right to jail them, he is wrong to demand sex for their release. He is obviously corrupt and should not have his position.
Robin Hood should not call her a "slut" for this one instance, as it is not enough to fit the definition of the term (and, of course, it is an offensive term, which is unnecessary to use). If we take seriously the instructions to "Forget any preconceived ideas you may about them", we have no idea of how he felt about her before, so him not wanting to see her again may be no change at all in his opinion of her; that she says she loves him in the story tells us nothing about how he feels about her.
Little John. As far as we can tell, he did nothing wrong, but without details of the story, like whether he should have been arrested or not, whether he is a fugitive from justice escaping Sherwood Forest, we do not know.
Maid Marion. Well, what would have happened if she had not done this? Would they have had a fair trial and met with justice? If so, then she was wrong to get them out of jail. But the story tells us nothing of what would have happened if she had not done this, so we have no idea of whether the situation was such that her actions would in any way be justified. Bribing an official to get prisoners out of jail is wrong, if the system is not corrupt and they were justly arrested.
Now, for those who say, well, obviously, we are not to forget the story of Robin Hood in this, to that I reply that, in that case, the instructions are incompetently written, as we are explicitly told to "Forget any preconceived ideas you may about them". If we do that, then we don't know who Robin Hood is or any of the other characters in the story, beyond what the story tells us.
If we keep to the story (though since it is legend, it has variants), as far as I can remember, then the sheriff is the worst. Robin Hood should not call Maid Marion a "slut", though whether he values virginity (or sexual fidelity, if they have been having sex) or not is up to him, so him not wanting to see her again is his choice. They are not married (or she would not be a "Maid"), and so he has no commitment to her, as far as I can remember in the story. Little John does nothing wrong; he is entitled to his opinion of Marion's actions. Marion can also do as she pleases, so I don't have any particular problem with her either, though if she had promised Robin Hood that she would save herself for him, then she broke her word. But I don't remember the story enough to be sure on that; I do not recall any real commitment between them, and so she is free to do as she pleases. Of course, there could be some implicit agreement, but this is getting too murky in my memory of the story (which, again, likely has variants such that it may go both ways, depending on the version one accepts).
So, on that view, Little John seems best, then Maid Marion, then Robin Hood, then the Sheriff of Nottingham. The biggest gap is between Robin Hood and the Sheriff, who is very corrupt and evil (though he did keep his word in letting them go). I put them in that order because we know Robin Hood is wrong to call Marion a "slut", though it could be that she broke her word to Robin Hood by sleeping with the Sheriff, in which case she might deserve to be in the third position. However, I am unsure of that, and so I rate her higher. It might be that she is equal to Little John, depending on what her promises to Robin Hood have been (that is, if she basically promised him nothing).
- LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz
SN RH LJ MM, got it. Thanks. Next...baker wrote: ↑December 18th, 2020, 6:20 amIn terms of moral realism:
Marion: worst, because she sacrificed herself for her boyfriend, and she is besmirched for the rest of her life by this sacrifice
Little John: wuss, very bad, because he picks up what other people threw away
Robin: wuss, he was right to discard Marion, but wrong to accept her sacrifice
Sheriff: good, because he comes out the winner in the sex situation, but bad because he released criminals
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