"Morality" quiz

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LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: December 18th, 2020, 6:42 am I'll have a go at satire.

US Politics:
SN = Trump.
RH = Michael Flynn? Ken Paxton?
MM = er, Sidney Powell? Stormy Daniels? Rudy Giuliani? The entire Republican Party?
LJ = er, don't know. Any ideas?

Perhaps Nottingham County Council should investigate the Sheriff for abuse of his pardon power.

UK Politics:
SN = Boris Johnson.
RH = All the fish in the North Sea.
MM = Michel Barnier?
LJ = The sunlit uplands? (Sorry, that one's a bit abstract.)
Sounds good, what's the order?
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 18th, 2020, 9:37 am
LuckyR wrote: December 17th, 2020, 6:45 pm

Just to clarify, the Sheriff's duty is obviously to arrest Robin and John, what are your thought's on his choice of release "payment"? Also are Robin and John equal in your eyes? Does Marion rate below the Sheriff or above?
The Sheriff is also a sucker for love? We do not really know but he could just be a lethario, or genuinely love Marion.
I would not rate them on a scale by as persons since I cannot know their deeper motivations. Politically I am all for Robin and upset at his rejecting Marion's sacrifice. But then maybe Marion is not the nice girl she pretends to be? She might just be looking to serve herself the best "john" as it were.
I wish John and Marion every happiness.

Judgments are not possible on the bare facts. Objective moral criteria cannot be used here.
Again, these are fictitious characters in a one paragraph story. This is a "measure" of your thoughts on the relative weight of various morality situations.
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by LuckyR »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2020, 11:50 am
LuckyR wrote: December 18th, 2020, 4:16 am

Remember this is not a judgment of four ficticious characters, it is a measure of your relative view of different types of behavior.
Right. Again, there's not enough info. One of the most important things we need to know is why the people were jailed. That makes a big difference re how I morally judge the jailer. The jailer might have done something immoral in jailing the individuals in the first place. Or he might be doing something immoral in letting them go free. Or it could be relatively neutral. To me, that's the biggest issue here.
Sorry. The Sheriff is being judged for using sexual extortion (not for completing his job description, hence the preconceived notion caveat).
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by LuckyR »

Jack D Ripper wrote: December 18th, 2020, 1:42 pm I think there is too much ambiguity in the story. What, exactly, are the relationships between the various people? What agreements have these people made before? Why does the Sheriff of Nottingham put these men in jail (am I seriously to forget preconceived ideas or not?)? But if I am to forget preconceived ideas, why does the story use the names of characters about whom we already have some ideas, instead of inventing new names? This is a poorly written story, which does not give enough detail.

To give an example of what I mean, suppose that Maid Marion and Robin Hood have sworn that they would be together and would be sexually exclusive. If that is the case, then she broke her word. If that is not the case, then she did not break her word. But which is it? The story does not tell us what their relationship is, and what obligations they already have.

Also, when Robin Hood "abuses her", does that just mean verbally, as in the next phrase, or does it mean something more? And with him calling her a "slut", is this the first time that she has cheated on Robin Hood (if it was cheating; we do not know what their relationship is, if we take seriously the instruction to "Forget any preconceived ideas you may about them")?

Also, honesty and morality are not the same thing. One could be very immoral while being honest. (E.g., "yes, I enjoy roasting children alive on a fire and eating them; the flavor is better if they cook while alive, as the meat is fresher.") Though, as far as we can tell from the story, the only character who is dishonest is the sheriff, as he is not doing his duty as sheriff properly, so he was dishonest in taking the job, as presumably he swore to uphold the law.


The only one I have much of an opinion about is the sheriff, as he is obviously corrupt and not properly doing the job of sheriff. If he was right to jail the men, then he ought not let them go and should keep them for trial or whatever. Regardless of whether he was right to jail them, he is wrong to demand sex for their release. He is obviously corrupt and should not have his position.

Robin Hood should not call her a "slut" for this one instance, as it is not enough to fit the definition of the term (and, of course, it is an offensive term, which is unnecessary to use). If we take seriously the instructions to "Forget any preconceived ideas you may about them", we have no idea of how he felt about her before, so him not wanting to see her again may be no change at all in his opinion of her; that she says she loves him in the story tells us nothing about how he feels about her.

Little John. As far as we can tell, he did nothing wrong, but without details of the story, like whether he should have been arrested or not, whether he is a fugitive from justice escaping Sherwood Forest, we do not know.

Maid Marion. Well, what would have happened if she had not done this? Would they have had a fair trial and met with justice? If so, then she was wrong to get them out of jail. But the story tells us nothing of what would have happened if she had not done this, so we have no idea of whether the situation was such that her actions would in any way be justified. Bribing an official to get prisoners out of jail is wrong, if the system is not corrupt and they were justly arrested.


Now, for those who say, well, obviously, we are not to forget the story of Robin Hood in this, to that I reply that, in that case, the instructions are incompetently written, as we are explicitly told to "Forget any preconceived ideas you may about them". If we do that, then we don't know who Robin Hood is or any of the other characters in the story, beyond what the story tells us.


If we keep to the story (though since it is legend, it has variants), as far as I can remember, then the sheriff is the worst. Robin Hood should not call Maid Marion a "slut", though whether he values virginity (or sexual fidelity, if they have been having sex) or not is up to him, so him not wanting to see her again is his choice. They are not married (or she would not be a "Maid"), and so he has no commitment to her, as far as I can remember in the story. Little John does nothing wrong; he is entitled to his opinion of Marion's actions. Marion can also do as she pleases, so I don't have any particular problem with her either, though if she had promised Robin Hood that she would save herself for him, then she broke her word. But I don't remember the story enough to be sure on that; I do not recall any real commitment between them, and so she is free to do as she pleases. Of course, there could be some implicit agreement, but this is getting too murky in my memory of the story (which, again, likely has variants such that it may go both ways, depending on the version one accepts).

So, on that view, Little John seems best, then Maid Marion, then Robin Hood, then the Sheriff of Nottingham. The biggest gap is between Robin Hood and the Sheriff, who is very corrupt and evil (though he did keep his word in letting them go). I put them in that order because we know Robin Hood is wrong to call Marion a "slut", though it could be that she broke her word to Robin Hood by sleeping with the Sheriff, in which case she might deserve to be in the third position. However, I am unsure of that, and so I rate her higher. It might be that she is equal to Little John, depending on what her promises to Robin Hood have been (that is, if she basically promised him nothing).
LJ MM RH SN, same as me, though for clarification: this is a measure of your opinion of the relative importance of sexual extortion (SN), being sexually extorted (MM), breaking up with and berating your partner for being sexually extorted on your behalf (RH), and choosing a partner who has been sexually extorted (LJ). Not an exploration of the intricacies of the judicial system and redistribution of wealth. You can adjust your ranking.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: December 18th, 2020, 1:51 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: December 18th, 2020, 9:37 am
The Sheriff is also a sucker for love? We do not really know but he could just be a lethario, or genuinely love Marion.
I would not rate them on a scale by as persons since I cannot know their deeper motivations. Politically I am all for Robin and upset at his rejecting Marion's sacrifice. But then maybe Marion is not the nice girl she pretends to be? She might just be looking to serve herself the best "john" as it were.
I wish John and Marion every happiness.

Judgments are not possible on the bare facts. Objective moral criteria cannot be used here.
Again, these are fictitious characters in a one paragraph story. This is a "measure" of your thoughts on the relative weight of various morality situations.
Well, yes, of course, but it is ALWAYS relative.
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: December 18th, 2020, 1:53 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2020, 11:50 am

Right. Again, there's not enough info. One of the most important things we need to know is why the people were jailed. That makes a big difference re how I morally judge the jailer. The jailer might have done something immoral in jailing the individuals in the first place. Or he might be doing something immoral in letting them go free. Or it could be relatively neutral. To me, that's the biggest issue here.
Sorry. The Sheriff is being judged for using sexual extortion (not for completing his job description, hence the preconceived notion caveat).
Er, No.
That is not specified. When the Sheriff imprisons RH that is just as much a moral act as when he releases RH, both ends of that act are moral decisions.
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by Terrapin Station »

LuckyR wrote: December 18th, 2020, 1:53 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2020, 11:50 am

Right. Again, there's not enough info. One of the most important things we need to know is why the people were jailed. That makes a big difference re how I morally judge the jailer. The jailer might have done something immoral in jailing the individuals in the first place. Or he might be doing something immoral in letting them go free. Or it could be relatively neutral. To me, that's the biggest issue here.
Sorry. The Sheriff is being judged for using sexual extortion (not for completing his job description, hence the preconceived notion caveat).
Extortion? The scenario said nothing about force or criminal threatening being involved in the sexual transaction.
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2020, 6:05 pmExtortion? The scenario said nothing about force or criminal threatening being involved in the sexual transaction.
LuckyR wrote: December 17th, 2020, 2:07 pmThe Sheriff of Nottingham captured Little John and Robin Hood and imprisoned them in his maximum-security dungeon. Maid Marion begged the Sheriff for their release, pleading her love for Robin.
Marion's love for Robin gives the Sheriff leverage for extorting her.
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LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: December 18th, 2020, 3:36 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 18th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Sorry. The Sheriff is being judged for using sexual extortion (not for completing his job description, hence the preconceived notion caveat).
Er, No.
That is not specified. When the Sheriff imprisons RH that is just as much a moral act as when he releases RH, both ends of that act are moral decisions.
In reality, yes. In this one paragraph, "fun" (back of magazine-style) QUIZ, no.
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LuckyR
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by LuckyR »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2020, 6:05 pm
LuckyR wrote: December 18th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Sorry. The Sheriff is being judged for using sexual extortion (not for completing his job description, hence the preconceived notion caveat).
Extortion? The scenario said nothing about force or criminal threatening being involved in the sexual transaction.
Sexual favors are, as it happens, not standard payment for release from jail. Use your own descriptor if it makes you feel better about it.
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by Ecurb »

The only morally sound character is Elinor of Acquitaine, the Queen Regent.
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by Terrapin Station »

LuckyR wrote: December 18th, 2020, 7:12 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2020, 6:05 pm

Extortion? The scenario said nothing about force or criminal threatening being involved in the sexual transaction.
Sexual favors are, as it happens, not standard payment for release from jail. Use your own descriptor if it makes you feel better about it.
It's not the norm, no, but it's not categorically extortion. There's nothing in the scenario to suggest that it's nonconsensual, and if it's consensual, there's nothing categorically wrong with it in my opinion. The problem on that end would only arise if we're talking about releasing someone who shouldn't be released, which is why it matters why folks in the scenario were imprisoned.
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Under the circumstances,
1. Marion acted morally under that most challenging circumstances so she's at the top of the list.
2. Little John comes next as he recognizes that Marion acted morally and comes to her aid after Robin rejects her.
3. Robin turns out to be a jerk, worried more about his own reputation than Marion's sacrifice.
4. The Sheriff of Nottingham is simply an evil man in a position of power within an evil system that forces people to break the law to survive.
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: December 18th, 2020, 8:56 pm...
3. Robin turns out to be a jerk, worried more about his own reputation than Marion's sacrifice.
...
Maybe he does not want to die a horrible death from syphilis, which could not be cured back then.

WARNING! Do not click on the link if you are squeamish.
https://dermnetnz.org/topics/syphilis/

Sex is, unfortunately, not just sex. It is a matter of life and death. Literally.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
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Re: "Morality" quiz

Post by Ecurb »

Jack D Ripper wrote: December 18th, 2020, 9:22 pm

Maybe he does not want to die a horrible death from syphilis, which could not be cured back then.

Sex is, unfortunately, not just sex. It is a matter of life and death. Literally.
Syphillis was non-existant back then in Europe. It was unknown until after Columbus sailed to America, and many historians specuulate that early explorers brought it back from the New World. Robin Hood was 300 years earlier. (The Europeans brought so many deadly diseases on their westward journeys thst syphillis seems paltry revenge.)

That being said, we can absolve the Sherriff on the basis of fate vs. free will. He is destined to act the villain, whether by the foreknowledge of God, the neurons firing in his brain, or literary conventions. What else can he do? Nothing.

Little John has violated the sacred convention of not hitting on your friends' girlfriends, at least for a year after the break-up.

Robin is a dweeb for the violence of his response, but I agree with Jack: he's entitled to break up with Marian for any reason whatsoever, unless by doing so he breaks a solemn promise.

Mairon is, of course, a slut. But who can blame her for that? If I were Robin, I'd be glad she "bailed me out". To each his own, though. If she starts mouning the Sherriff's name in moments of passion, though, I might have second thoughts.
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