Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

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Ishkah
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Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Ishkah » January 6th, 2021, 5:28 am



Hey all, I‘m working on a video script of a comedy ethical dialogue. So it's ethical arguments to encourage a big lefty political youtuber into seeing the moral responsibility in going vegan, dressed up in a funny way so he'll watch when he's live-streaming.

It’s supposed to be cheesy to make light of the fact he hates talking about veganism. And it's set in the future to imagine his friends Shoeonhead and Xanderhal have gone vegan.

Then in the credits of the video I’m going to say that there’s a link in the description to a google document he can read if he wants to see some of the arguments contained in the video in a longer format (he is interested in formal arguments).

So first I’ll show you those arguments and I’d love to read if you think there is a better way I could explain or improve my counter-arguments.

Then I’ll show the script and I’d love to read any suggested edits for how to make the ethical arguments land best. Or even what jokes and funny verbal flourishes you would include.

But obviously I understand it is very long, so feel free to use the index, skip read, and comment on any part of it.




Index

1. Vaush’s argument against veganism being a moral obligation under capitalism
1a. Natural Language Argument
1b. Formal Language Version Of The Same Argument

2. Natural Language Counter-Arguments
2a. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #1
2b. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #2
2c. Vegan General Counter-Argument

3. Formal Language Versions Of The Same Counter-Arguments
3a. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #1
3b. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #2
3c. Vegan General Counter-Argument

4. Video Script - The Vegan Inception of Vaush




1. Vaush’s argument against veganism being a moral obligation under capitalism.

1a. Natural language


Vaush in his own words: “I believe the morality of an action is determined by its outcomes. It is undeniable that participating in the consumption of animal products contributes harm to the world, which is why I consider the act of purchasing meat immoral.”

So the problem for Vaush comes not from whether or not some capitalist products happen to increase or decrease total utility, but whether we should condemn someone’s character when they are alienated from where the profits end up, which is what makes the ethical difference for him between shooting a cow himself and buying a product in which the profits maybe go back to the farmer to breed more.

Essentially saying we have to accept the possibility of 1 person causing infinite harm through buying meat because they were brainwashed by social conditioning in order to have the highest probability of all people arriving in the future world with greater utility. Any world where we have to condemn people for being brainwashed in order to achieve greater utility is fundamentally irrational and so (1) there’s no way to know whether that greater utility achieved in one instance could easily be cancelled out later or (2) would just be some hellscape which would not fit his definition of utility.

So ultimately we ought not spend time advocating that individuals should reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism if doing so puts an unhealthy focus on those most disadvantaged, drawing attention away from what systemic policies would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices. Or more broadly associates leftism with fetishised moral axioms which hampers how many people we can convert to the left.


1b. Formal Language

P1) We ought not spend time advocating that individuals ought reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism if doing so puts an unhealthy focus on those most disadvantaged, drawing attention away from what systemic policies would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices or more broadly associates leftism with fetishised moral axioms which hampers how many people we can convert to the left.

P2) Advocating that individuals should reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism puts an unhealthy focus on those most disadvantaged, drawing attention away from what systemic policies would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices or more broadly associates leftism with fetishised moral axioms which hampers how many people we can convert to the left.

C) Therefore we ought not spend time advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism because doing so puts an unhealthy focus on those most disadvantaged, drawing attention away from what systemic policies would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices or more broadly associates leftism with fetishised moral axioms which hampers how many people we can convert to the left.


2. Natural Language Counter-Arguments

2a. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #1


If a man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life, then; it would be okay for their friends to ask why he chose to do the unethical act, drawing attention to his individual responsibility because there was zero to negligible alienation or social conditioning clouding his opinion.


2b. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #2

There’s a way you could take this concern for shifting the blame onto individuals too far the other way, in that I think we’d agree if someone was obscenely rich and spent all their money on luxury items, never donating to campaigns or charities that we would need to bring about a better society you would think badly of this person because they would be displaying the same indifferent behaviour you’d expect of someone who say participated in systemic racism, for example excluding your generationally low-income black friend with no car from playing on your sports team by never seeing it as your responsibility to offer to drive to pick them up so they can join in.

If we ought to spend time advocating individuals donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & unions under capitalism because donating spare cash to campaigns & charities helps bring about a market socialist society then; we inherently are advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism to have the spare cash to donate to campaigns & charities.

Therefore it’s worth advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption and it’s worth drawing people’s attention to which boycotts most effectively help bring about a world with higher total well-being in it e.g. veganism.


2c. Vegan General Counter-Argument

If we ought to spend time participating in whichever campaigns are most likely to bring about a market-socialist society fastest then; bar fringe situations like eating disorders and severe depression it’s appropriate to discuss the unethical act of buying meat with people so as to work out where they can best put their energy. Even if doing so puts a focus on their individual responsibility because doing so brings about systemic policy changes faster which would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices.


3. Formal Language Versions Of The Same Counter-Arguments

3a. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #1


P1) If a man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life, then it would be okay for their friends to ask why he chose to do the unethical act, drawing attention to his individual responsibility because there was zero to negligible alienation or social conditioning clouding his opinion.

P2) A man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life.

C) Therefore a man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life, AND it would be okay for their friends to ask why he chose to do the unethical act, drawing attention to his individual responsibility because there was zero to negligible alienation or social conditioning clouding his opinion.


3b. Vegan Exception Counter-Argument #2

P1) If we ought spend time advocating individuals donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & unions under capitalism because donating spare cash to campaigns & charities helps bring about a market socialist society THEN we inherently are advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism to have the spare cash to donate to campaigns & charities.

P2) We ought to spend time advocating that individuals donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & unions under capitalism because donating spare cash to campaigns & unions helps bring about a market socialist society.

C) Therefore we ought to spend time advocating that individuals donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & unions under capitalism because donating spare cash to campaigns & charities helps bring about a market socialist society AND we inherently are advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism to have the spare cash to donate to campaigns & charities.


3c. Vegan General Counter-Argument

P1) If we ought to spend time participating in whichever campaigns are most likely to bring about a market-socialist society fastest THEN bar fringe situations like eating disorders and severe depression it’s appropriate to discuss the unethical act of buying meat with people so as to work out where they can best put their energy. Even if doing so puts a focus on their individual responsibility, because doing so brings about systemic policy changes faster which would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices.

P2) We ought to spend time participating in whichever campaigns are most likely to bring about a market-socialist society.

C) Therefore we ought spend time participating in whichever campaigns are most likely to bring about a market-socialist society fastest AND bar fringe situations like eating disorders and severe depression it’s appropriate to discuss the unethical act of buying meat with people so as to work out where they can best put their energy. Even if doing so puts a focus on their individual responsibility, because doing so brings about systemic policy changes faster which would uplift the most disadvantaged to be able to make healthy consumer choices.


——

4. Video Script - The Vegan Inception of Vaush

Scene 1. Year 2026 Xanderhal and Shoe are working a food not bombs stall

Sarah Conner (Terminator 2): June 21st, 2026. Judgement day.

Shoe: Jee it sure is nice to be living a low-impact vegan lifestyle, so massively reducing the harm we cause to other people and animals.

Xanderhal: I know, at least now I don't have to feel guilty about not wanting to watch that slaughterhouse footage. And it's great to be getting out and directly helping people whilst changing hearts and minds.

Shoe: Yeah there's no way we could reach as many people as guys like Vaush do with his youtube channel and based debate skills, but we all play our part.

Xanderhal: Totally, and it's great to see all the new people through the doors of the activist resource centre who said they were radicalized by Vaush.

Shoe: For sure, I just wish more of them would join us out here feeding the hungry, talking about our country’s unethical food system and arms sales. But, I guess a lot of them have bought into his line about there being no individual moral responsibility for our consumption under capitalism.

Xanderhal: Yeah, it's sad too because he understands the importance of going vegan, so if he could just push through that initial period where your taste buds change he could be learning to appreciate so much banging eastern food, plus be a lot healthier and happier for it.

Shoe: What if we invited him to go swimming with us at the beach and get him hooked on being fit and eating well?

[Cut to all the times Vaush has said he hates going outside.]

Shoe and Xanderhal: No, that won't work.

[Both phones buzz, as they look down they see a breaking news alert: “Bill passes into law guaranteeing free access to previously classified technology which allows people to design and enter others dreams for the radical potential it holds for people to be fully immersed into mind expanding philosophical thought experiments.”]

Shoe and Xanderhal: Bingo.

[1 week later]


Scene 2. Xanderhal and Shoe arrive at Vaush's house

Xanderhal: Yo, we've built the sickest dreamscape for you, you down for this challenge?

Vaush: Alright, let's do this.


Scene 3. Vaush, Hyena, Conya, Shoe are all in a campervan driving to the beach.

Shoe: This beach party is gonna be a-mazing.

Conya: Oh ****, Xanderhal just texted asking if he could get a lift.

Vaush: Aw man, you know how much I hate driving back.

Conya: I know, but you know how skint he is at the moment, so I’m sure he could really use a break from it all.

Vaush: Okay, he is my friend, I wouldn't want to, aha, do a classism by excluding him.

[A few moments later]

Vaush: Yo, my man, how’ you doin?

Xanderhal: I'm good, thanks so much for the ride.

Shoe: I’ve got us covered on the soy sausages for the barbeque.

Xanderhal: Nice, yeah I haven’t had a barbeque in forever. I’ve just been doing a lot of cooking whole foods at home to save money, but I’ve learnt so many new recipes and food cultures.

Vaush: Fair dos, how long did it take for that to settle in?

Xanderhal: Yeah it definitely wasn’t overnight. I mean you know me and Shoe have been getting more into doing street advocacy, but I wouldn't automatically judge someone who was in a bad living situation and didn't have the headspace for it.

Vaush: Oh ****, sounds like you think I’m still on the hook though aha.

Xanderhal: Aha well I guess I just think we should all be challenging ourselves to make the world a better place. The justification that you’re doing enough already and don’t need to change is a fairly standard psychological vice, but obviously one we can out grow.

Vaush: I dunno, I **** live for dairy, I’m lactose intolerant and I eat so much dairy every day and it’s all worth it.

Xanderhal: Well think of it this way, the same way it would be a small mark against your character if you failed to put the extra effort into showing up for your friends, I think we ought to put that effort into resisting a culture which normalises meat eating.

Vaush: Is it really fair to judge someone as morally bad if they’ve been brainwashed by wall to wall advertising telling them meat eating is essential though?

We need to be moving the narrative onto the systemic change we can make.

(All nod, but then…)

Shoe: But! Would it not be equally dangerous, if we didn’t challenge each other to do better?

(Insert funny example, c’mon man, look at when I stopped you ….)

Also, we know all we need is an active enough minority to generate the public will for legislation and food co-ops, on the way to a vegan world. Which will make healthy living choices the norm much faster.

Xanderhal: I understand that desire for there to be clear lines about what is and isn’t a moral obligation, but I think you know you would judge yourself if you stopped caring about anyone outside your circle of family and friends.

Vaush: True, true...

Xanderhal: Like say you won the lottery tomorrow and spent it all over a weekend on luxury items, you would feel guilty every time you saw a good cause or campaign you could have helped.

Vaush: No doubt...

Xanderhal: So, if we can admit we ought to donate some amount of spare cash to campaigns & charities under capitalism at some point in our life because it would help bring about a better world then;

(Vaush looks at Hunter willing him to find the ‘then statement’)

Xanderhal: ... we inherently are advocating individuals reduce their harmful consumption under capitalism to have the spare cash to donate to campaigns & charities.

(Vaush looks thoughtful but ready to be persuaded)

Xanderhal: Therefore it’s worth advocating that individuals reduce their harmful consumption and it’s worth drawing people’s attention to which consumer boycotts most effectively help bring about a world with higher total well-being in it, including veganism.

(Vaush, opens mouth to speak but Hunter presses on)

Xanderhal: But, if you need to experience that intuition for yourself, here goes, computer run scenario 2.

Vaush: Wait, what?


Scene 4. Vaush experiences winning the lottery and spending it all on a weekend bender

BLM: You wasted all your winnings while people out here are dying?


Scene 5. Exits dreamscape and is back home

Vaush: (Forehead sweating) Alright, I’m convinced, I’ll go vegan.


Credits.

Text on screen: Link down below to the arguments in a clear format.

Credit to the names of people who helped with the script.


Description box.

Arguments in the video:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pc ... CFSy8/edit

Links to the social media of people who helped.


——

Writing Process

Needs more memes for laughs.

I could include this hypothetical as another dream level but pretty long already:

If a man lived his whole life from birth to the age of 50 in a vegan socialist commune, being a wildlife vet and left to do a talk for 1 day and had the choice of buying a bacon sandwich from a wage labour deli or vegan sandwich from a worker co-op, before returning to the commune to live out the rest of his life, then; it would be okay for their friends to ask why he chose to do the unethical act, drawing attention to his individual responsibility because there was zero to negligible alienation or social conditioning clouding his opinion.


___


Video Editing Process

I’ll have to use a tonne of voice edits, copying a bunch of video automatic transcripts into a word doc, then pressing Ctrl+F for long matching sentences with the script, marking the time stamp and clipping them out in order of sequence once I’ve found them all.

For video footage I’ll use head cutouts motion tracked over the top of movie clips.


——

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Count Lucanor
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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Count Lucanor » January 6th, 2021, 9:14 pm

Socialism makes sense. Veganism as a political cause is nonsense. I don't see how you can put the two together.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Ishkah » January 7th, 2021, 5:55 am

Count Lucanor wrote:
January 6th, 2021, 9:14 pm
Socialism makes sense. Veganism as a political cause is nonsense. I don't see how you can put the two together.
Veganism is simply an animal products boycott campaign, it can be advocated for for any reason from environmental, to welfare of the animals, to economic drain on the country, to not wanting to put slaughterhouse workers through a miserable job, to simply thinking people could be doing something better with their time.

So there’s many reasons someone could desire to be part of both political campaigns, including simply desiring to act on more than the one principle in life.

Anyways the YouTuber the video is directed at thinks killing animals for food where we can eat vegan is unjustifiable, he just has a nuanced critique of not losing sight of the systemic change we can fight for in voting in people that serve the average worker, by stopping giving bailouts and massive tax subsidies to massive factory farms, putting in more worker protections for slaughterhouse workers and making education free so better jobs are created, etc.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Count Lucanor » January 7th, 2021, 6:24 pm

Ishkah wrote:
January 7th, 2021, 5:55 am
Count Lucanor wrote:
January 6th, 2021, 9:14 pm
Socialism makes sense. Veganism as a political cause is nonsense. I don't see how you can put the two together.
Veganism is simply an animal products boycott campaign, it can be advocated for for any reason from environmental, to welfare of the animals, to economic drain on the country, to not wanting to put slaughterhouse workers through a miserable job, to simply thinking people could be doing something better with their time.
That's more or less what I was referring to as a nonsensical political cause.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Ishkah » January 7th, 2021, 10:05 pm

Count Lucanor wrote:
January 7th, 2021, 6:24 pm
Ishkah wrote:
January 7th, 2021, 5:55 am
Veganism is simply an animal products boycott campaign, it can be advocated for for any reason from environmental, to welfare of the animals, to economic drain on the country, to not wanting to put slaughterhouse workers through a miserable job, to simply thinking people could be doing something better with their time.
That's more or less what I was referring to as a nonsensical political cause.
Coolio, well I’m arguing this is a bunch of harms a good portion of the population going vegan would help address, let me know when you’re ready to present a counter-argument.

You can start with basic thermodynamics, how we can save more land feeding plants to humans than growing plants to feed to animals to feed to humans.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Count Lucanor » January 8th, 2021, 7:30 pm

Ishkah wrote:
January 7th, 2021, 10:05 pm
Count Lucanor wrote:
January 7th, 2021, 6:24 pm

That's more or less what I was referring to as a nonsensical political cause.
Coolio, well I’m arguing this is a bunch of harms a good portion of the population going vegan would help address, let me know when you’re ready to present a counter-argument.
I find these ideas rather naive and very poor as to aspire to become an argument. It is waste of time. Actually, that people would peddle veganism is not much of my concern, what gets me thinking is that this could be associated with socialism.
Ishkah wrote:
January 7th, 2021, 10:05 pm
You can start with basic thermodynamics, how we can save more land feeding plants to humans than growing plants to feed to animals to feed to humans.
I'm sure we can do well with plankton alone.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Ishkah » January 8th, 2021, 9:32 pm

Count Lucanor wrote:I find these ideas rather naive and very poor as to aspire to become an argument.
The environmental arguments for veganism alone are incredibly strong, you have A) Feed conversion ratio: to produce a plate of meat requires feeding an animal around 5-20 plates of plant food so logically whatever environmental impact there is from growing and transporting plants (including water use, pesticides and fertilizers) is much less if we eat plant foods directly. B) Cow (and sheep) methane, contribute to 14.5% of global greenhouse gas emissions. C) In modern industrial farming a lot of animal waste goes into the rivers around the animal facilities.
Count Lucanor wrote:Actually, that people would peddle veganism is not much of my concern, what gets me thinking is that this could be associated with socialism.
Well if not an argument, do let me know when you have a more complicated thought than ‘I agree with one and not the other, so don’t like them being associated’.

As far as policy proposals, steps along the way to veganism can be picked up by any political ideology/party, but according to one poll liberals are 2.5 times more likely to be vegan than conservatives are.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Count Lucanor » January 9th, 2021, 1:58 pm

Ishkah wrote:
January 8th, 2021, 9:32 pm
Count Lucanor wrote:I find these ideas rather naive and very poor as to aspire to become an argument.
The environmental arguments for veganism alone are incredibly strong, you have A) Feed conversion ratio: to produce a plate of meat requires feeding an animal around 5-20 plates of plant food so logically whatever environmental impact there is from growing and transporting plants (including water use, pesticides and fertilizers) is much less if we eat plant foods directly. B) Cow (and sheep) methane, contribute to 14.5% of global greenhouse gas emissions. C) In modern industrial farming a lot of animal waste goes into the rivers around the animal facilities.
There may be rational arguments for more efficiency in food production, but if all human endeavors were compelled to commit to such perfect rationality and efficiency, most of modern life as we know it, would not have to exist, even that which vegans enjoy. Agriculture does cause environmental impact. Therefore, some compromises would have to be made with ways of living in a spectrum of possibilities that do not meet that standard of efficiency (veganism actually sits comfortably somewhere along that spectrum) which brings us to the problem of making people comply by administrative coercion (which is what is behind the political cause of veganism). It is one thing an alternative diet, food production or lifestyle, and another thing a compelled diet, food production and lifestyle, based on the particular lifestyle preferences of a group. Veganism is an argument against human diversity.

Secondly, if there was any room for such arguments of food production efficiency, they would make the case for vegetarianism, not veganism.

Third, most arguments against meat consumption only address cattle meat, not all types of meat sources out there, which do not have the same environmental impact. The alternative to beef doesn't seem to be vegetarianism only, but food from diverse sources.
Ishkah wrote:
January 8th, 2021, 9:32 pm
As far as policy proposals, steps along the way to veganism can be picked up by any political ideology/party, but according to one poll liberals are 2.5 times more likely to be vegan than conservatives are.
Going vegan yourself and forcing everyone else to go vegan are two different issues.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Ishkah » January 9th, 2021, 3:26 pm

Count Lucanor wrote:It is one thing an alternative diet, food production or lifestyle, and another thing a compelled diet, food production and lifestyle, based on the particular lifestyle preferences of a group. Veganism is an argument against human diversity.
We are forcing man made climate change, species extinction and pollution on future generations. Most people eat the same few meals within their food culture with the same few vegetables, grains and meats. Theres over 20,000 edible plants and fungi that we can combine and cook in a million different ways. Vegans are the ones asking people to diversify.

Although the origins of many recipes in the black community of the Americas can be traced back to before slavery, as African and European foodways have influenced it, many of the foods used and associated with the cuisine originate from the limited rations allowed to them by slave owners. These are mostly unhealthy foods and most often simply had to be used in such a way to provide high amounts of calories to balance out spending long days working in the fields. Black people who adapt the ingredients don't think they are losing their culture, only adding to it, more often it's meat eaters being dogmatic believing you must eat food one way in order to understand the culture, which limits diversity. Check out the invisible vegan documentary clip on soul food.
Count Lucanor wrote:Secondly, if there was any room for such arguments of food production efficiency, they would make the case for vegetarianism, not veganism.
Why? Products like cows milk is ridiculously inefficient compared to plant milks.
Count Lucanor wrote:Third, most arguments against meat consumption only address cattle meat, not all types of meat sources out there, which do not have the same environmental impact. The alternative to beef doesn't seem to be vegetarianism only, but food from diverse sources.
All animals bar insects are worse environmentally than almost all plant foods.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Count Lucanor » January 9th, 2021, 4:38 pm

Ishkah wrote:
January 9th, 2021, 3:26 pm
Count Lucanor wrote:It is one thing an alternative diet, food production or lifestyle, and another thing a compelled diet, food production and lifestyle, based on the particular lifestyle preferences of a group. Veganism is an argument against human diversity.
We are forcing man made climate change, species extinction and pollution on future generations. Most people eat the same few meals within their food culture with the same few vegetables, grains and meats. Theres over 20,000 edible plants and fungi that we can combine and cook in a million different ways.
Again, that would be an argument (still disputable) for vegetarianism, not for veganism. Veganism goes beyond dietary concerns.
Ishkah wrote:
January 9th, 2021, 3:26 pm
Vegans are the ones asking people to diversify.
One thing is to ask people and another to compel people. When you ask people, you are allowing the possibility of many not following your advice, when you compel people you are coercing everyone to comply.
Ishkah wrote:
January 9th, 2021, 3:26 pm
Although the origins of many recipes in the black community of the Americas can be traced back to before slavery, as African and European foodways have influenced it, many of the foods used and associated with the cuisine originate from the limited rations allowed to them by slave owners. These are mostly unhealthy foods and most often simply had to be used in such a way to provide high amounts of calories to balance out spending long days working in the fields. Black people who adapt the ingredients don't think they are losing their culture, only adding to it, more often it's meat eaters being dogmatic believing you must eat food one way in order to understand the culture, which limits diversity.
Again, you seem not to be able to make a distinction between vegetarianism and veganism. If veganism is problematic as a political cause, more so will be vegetarianism.
Ishkah wrote:
January 9th, 2021, 3:26 pm


Why? Products like cows milk is ridiculously inefficient compared to plant milks.
Still an argument for optional vegetarianism, not for mandatory veganism. BTW, it would be plant juice, not milk.
Ishkah wrote:
January 9th, 2021, 3:26 pm
Count Lucanor wrote:Third, most arguments against meat consumption only address cattle meat, not all types of meat sources out there, which do not have the same environmental impact. The alternative to beef doesn't seem to be vegetarianism only, but food from diverse sources.
All animals bar insects are worse environmentally than almost all plant foods.
That's disputable, given the proportion of sea food biomass vs human biomass and vs mammal biomass. Insects (arthropods) are one of the largest in biomass after plants, so in terms of efficiency they are an option, too. And agricultural crops are not exempt of environmental impacts, specially if some food is produced at large scale.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Ishkah » January 20th, 2021, 5:23 pm

Count Lucanor wrote:Again, that would be an argument (still disputable) for vegetarianism, not for veganism. Veganism goes beyond dietary concerns.
No, not just vegetarian, almost all animal products, as there’s good reason to boycott and more heavily regulate leather production for the toxic chemicals needed to make it when there are higher quality, cheaper and more environmentally friendly substitutes.
Count Lucanor wrote:BTW, it would be plant juice, not milk.
Firstly, at minimum it’s easily understandable as a catch all for a group of brand names (soy milk, oat milk, etc.) which in turn is just marketing shorthand for ‘plant substitute for baby cow calorie/hormone growth formula’, so there’s no reason to object to use of the term.

Secondly, opaque liquids from plants have been referred to as milk throughout history e.g. coconut milk, ‘milk of the rubber tree’, etc.

Thirdly, even if you view it as new slang, common usage will, if not has already, lead to a secondary definition of milk, like you can find in the Cambridge online dictionary:

“the liquid made from some plants and trees or their nuts, etc.:
coconut milk
plant-based alternatives to dairy such as almond or hazelnut milk”
Count Lucanor wrote:
Ishkah wrote:All animals bar insects are worse environmentally than almost all plant foods.
That's disputable, given the proportion of sea food biomass vs human biomass and vs mammal biomass. Insects (arthropods) are one of the largest in biomass after plants, so in terms of efficiency they are an option, too. And agricultural crops are not exempt of environmental impacts, specially if some food is produced at large scale.
I granted insects, as well fishing and hunting can be done in moderation if you don’t mind directly causing suffering for taste pleasure, though we need to dramatically cut back on fishing if we want to avoid species extinction in the ocean food chain. Also I granted some few plant foods and of course anything can be farmed in a bad way or bad location. It still all adds up to if people or governments want to limit environmental catastrophe, we should look at ways to reduce animal product consumption to near zero.

I’d also argue the psychological case for most people cutting out all animal products because of how habits can easily creep back, where we forget the passion for the environment we once had through a 1000 tiny rationalizations until you find yourself at the bottom of a slippery slope.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Count Lucanor » January 20th, 2021, 9:34 pm

Ishkah wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 5:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote:Again, that would be an argument (still disputable) for vegetarianism, not for veganism. Veganism goes beyond dietary concerns.
No, not just vegetarian, almost all animal products, as there’s good reason to boycott and more heavily regulate leather production for the toxic chemicals needed to make it when there are higher quality, cheaper and more environmentally friendly substitutes.
Now you may want to introduce arguments for veganism (which you had not), but regulating production and consumption of animal products for health and environmental reasons is not the same as boycotting them for any other reason, such as dietary concerns, since you should not impose lifestyle choices unto others.
Ishkah wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 5:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote:BTW, it would be plant juice, not milk.
Firstly, at minimum it’s easily understandable as a catch all for a group of brand names (soy milk, oat milk, etc.) which in turn is just marketing shorthand for ‘plant substitute for baby cow calorie/hormone growth formula’, so there’s no reason to object to use of the term.

Secondly, opaque liquids from plants have been referred to as milk throughout history e.g. coconut milk, ‘milk of the rubber tree’, etc.

Thirdly, even if you view it as new slang, common usage will, if not has already, lead to a secondary definition of milk, like you can find in the Cambridge online dictionary:

“the liquid made from some plants and trees or their nuts, etc.:
coconut milk
plant-based alternatives to dairy such as almond or hazelnut milk”
I think it is basically a mislabeling for pure marketing reasons, given the long reputation of dairy milk as a nutritious food.
Ishkah wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 5:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: That's disputable, given the proportion of sea food biomass vs human biomass and vs mammal biomass. Insects (arthropods) are one of the largest in biomass after plants, so in terms of efficiency they are an option, too. And agricultural crops are not exempt of environmental impacts, specially if some food is produced at large scale.
I granted insects, as well fishing and hunting can be done in moderation if you don’t mind directly causing suffering for taste pleasure, though we need to dramatically cut back on fishing if we want to avoid species extinction in the ocean food chain. Also I granted some few plant foods and of course anything can be farmed in a bad way or bad location. It still all adds up to if people or governments want to limit environmental catastrophe, we should look at ways to reduce animal product consumption to near zero.
As we can see, the "efficiency" argument is just an excuse, an obvious rationalization a posteriori of the desire of vegans to cause no harm to animals, but instead of saying it like it is (the expression of a particular desire, which not everyone can embrace, and that could be promoted as a lifestyle choice), it is sold as a practical solution to human problems and that everyone must comply with, as if it were a universal principle.
Ishkah wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 5:23 pm
I’d also argue the psychological case for most people cutting out all animal products because of how habits can easily creep back, where we forget the passion for the environment we once had through a 1000 tiny rationalizations until you find yourself at the bottom of a slippery slope.
You might convince people to adopt such views, but the issue is whether you can force them or not.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Ishkah » January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am

Count Lucanor wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 9:34 pm
Ishkah wrote:
January 20th, 2021, 5:23 pm

No, not just vegetarian, almost all animal products, as there’s good reason to boycott and more heavily regulate leather production for the toxic chemicals needed to make it when there are higher quality, cheaper and more environmentally friendly substitutes.
Now you may want to introduce arguments for veganism (which you had not), but regulating production and consumption of animal products for health and environmental reasons is not the same as boycotting them for any other reason, such as dietary concerns, since you should not impose lifestyle choices unto others.
I’m entirely lost with what even position of mine you came onto this thread to counter-argue.

I presented a bunch of niche arguments between pro-vegan socialists and asked for feedback on if there’s a better way I could explain or improve my arguments.

Did you mean to state your discomfort that someone could advocate for socialism and veganism because you think socialism is a positive ideal that a majority would benefit from, while you don’t think the same is true for the ideal of veganism? So you think being seen to advocate both makes socislism look bad?

My answer is there are many great arguments for how going vegan will/would improve the would, so it’s a positive political movement.

Now are you arguing vegans want to impose lifestyles onto others with laws, which you think is bad, so you wouldn’t like it to be associated with socialism?

If so, my answer is 1) Governments do that all the time, preventing people living a lifestyle of consuming CP, or from being a pimp, or from keeping your neighbours awake, or being a bank robber.

And 2) There’s a 101 incremental policy steps towards veganism which the majority of people are on board with and that it’s actually negative political capital to be against like preventing factory farm sewage from going into rivers, so I just see the culture shifting gradually towards being more environmentally and ethically conscious and people voting in more protections over time.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Count Lucanor » January 22nd, 2021, 11:08 pm

Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am

I presented a bunch of niche arguments between pro-vegan socialists and asked for feedback on if there’s a better way I could explain or improve my arguments.
No, you presented a bunch of arguments for vegetarianism, not for veganism. Socialism? Other than putting that label, I don't see anything that would allow to identify socialist views in these arguments.
Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am
Did you mean to state your discomfort that someone could advocate for socialism and veganism because you think socialism is a positive ideal that a majority would benefit from, while you don’t think the same is true for the ideal of veganism? So you think being seen to advocate both makes socislism look bad?
I'm aware that socialism and veganism could coexist as a mere contingency, but one doesn't need the other, and I'm actually more concerned about the political causes themselves than people using labels to pose as activists of those causes. Socialism is about a desired state of social relations in human society, by definition veganism is about something else. I really don't care much either about people embracing veganism as the lifestyle of their choice, but people imposing their lifestyle choices on others is a different issue.
Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am
My answer is there are many great arguments for how going vegan will/would improve the would, so it’s a positive political movement.
A political movement that would promote exercise and well-being practices could be positive, but the moment it pretends to impose such practices unto everyone, it ceases to be a enhancing force of society.
Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am
Now are you arguing vegans want to impose lifestyles onto others with laws, which you think is bad, so you wouldn’t like it to be associated with socialism?
As I said, the fact is that an association with socialism would be completely contingent. It makes as much sense as Buddhist socialism, anti-natalist socialism or urban socialism.
Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am
If so, my answer is 1) Governments do that all the time, preventing people living a lifestyle of consuming CP, or from being a pimp, or from keeping your neighbours awake, or being a bank robber.
Those prohibitions are generally agreed rules: not causing harm to other people's lives of property, respecting their freedom, their dignity, etc. A concern about what people eat or what natural resources they use doesn't seem to go along those lines, unless a given state of the historical relations between humans and nature ultimately harmed human society, and one would expect regulations and even some prohibitions, but what some vegan activists strive for goes well beyond that goal and seems to be motivated by other reasons, most likely not related to humans themselves.
Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am
And 2) There’s a 101 incremental policy steps towards veganism which the majority of people are on board with and that it’s actually negative political capital to be against like preventing factory farm sewage from going into rivers, so I just see the culture shifting gradually towards being more environmentally and ethically conscious and people voting in more protections over time.
That's not true. According to Pew Research, only 3% of U.S. adults identifies as either strict vegetarians or vegans. And that's just people that simply adopted that lifestyle, it says nothing about them endorsing political views to impose their lifestyle unto others.

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Re: Niche vegan socialist arguments and counter-arguments

Post by Ishkah » January 23rd, 2021, 5:22 am

Count Lucanor wrote:
January 22nd, 2021, 11:08 pm
Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am

I presented a bunch of niche arguments between pro-vegan socialists and asked for feedback on if there’s a better way I could explain or improve my arguments.
No, you presented a bunch of arguments for vegetarianism, not for veganism. Socialism? Other than putting that label, I don't see anything that would allow to identify socialist views in these arguments.
Oh my holy Jebus, all I’m trying to ascertain Is what you hope to achieve from this conversation.

I was explaining how in my initial post, I presented a bunch of arguments indexed 1-3 and asked for feedback.

You appear not to have read any of it and just knee jerk reacted to a misunderstanding of the title.

I never argued one needs the other, as I said in my initial reply to you “So there’s many reasons someone could desire to be part of both political campaigns, including simply desiring to act on more than the one principle in life.”
Count Lucanor wrote:
January 22nd, 2021, 11:08 pm
Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am
If so, my answer is 1) Governments do that all the time, preventing people living a lifestyle of consuming CP, or from being a pimp, or from keeping your neighbours awake, or being a bank robber.
Those prohibitions are generally agreed rules: not causing harm to other people's lives of property, respecting their freedom, their dignity, etc.
Right, and many people believe it would be good to extend some of those rules to animals, which is why we have laws against some bloodsports like dog fighting and badger baiting, or animal welfare laws.

And why in 500 years or so we might see a majority vote on a law granting collective legal rights to non-human animals to have a refuge in dense wildlife habitat where they aren’t subject to human cruelty. With the few exceptions where the law is overridden by right to self-defence or special dispensation from the government for example to practice some scientific testing to cure diseases, as well as breed and keep guide dogs for the blind.
Count Lucanor wrote:
January 22nd, 2021, 11:08 pm
Ishkah wrote:
January 21st, 2021, 12:21 am
And 2) There’s a 101 incremental policy steps towards veganism which the majority of people are on board with and that it’s actually negative political capital to be against like preventing factory farm sewage from going into rivers, so I just see the culture shifting gradually towards being more environmentally and ethically conscious and people voting in more protections over time.
That's not true. According to Pew Research, only 3% of U.S. adults identifies as either strict vegetarians or vegans. And that's just people that simply adopted that lifestyle, it says nothing about them endorsing political views to impose their lifestyle unto others.
I said 101 incremental steps towards a vegan country that people agree with, not that it would take exactly 101 steps in total to get there. Stamping down on pollution, higher welfare, less subsidies for carbon polluting industries, etc. Will all increase the price of animal products, while plant alternatives will be increasingly easier to mass produce cheaply with higher demand.

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