Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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SneakySniper179
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Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by SneakySniper179 »

I believe in being polite and kind. I believe in being as truthful as you possibly can. I believe in helping others but as much as I believe in all of this I do see the need for deception. Sometimes the truth won't cut it. Sometimes what you need is to lie....

It's a fine line, if you lie too much you a ****. If you never lie, you are lying. Life is like a chess game a lot of the time. You need to complete an objective. You need to win. It's either for the gain of yourself or the gain of others.

It's rarely for the gain of others but when it is, it's the most justified but it's still a lie. In life there are systems you need to play and things you cannot say. There are people who are unrespectable you need to respect. To their face you are kind. In your head, you are furious but to keep playing you are deceptive.

Everyone has encountered situations like this. You are living under a rock if you haven't. The best thing is, is to let the game play and to put the cards on the table as they come along. There are situations you don't have much control in but you need to play your way out in the best way. Looking for better options, the best option for a minimum impact.

When this game is played for fun is when things go wrong. If not used as a survival mechanism you use it for entertainment or illegal purposes. Everyone has done it. If you haven't you will. Saying everything on your mind is a flaw. Sadly we can't all be truthful. That's too easy and it can hurt.

Be careful though. Every lie told is a debt to be paid to the truth. If and when the walls come down everything comes down with it. Morality is subjective like most things. It all depends on the players, the game you are playing and why you play it.

Remember. It's a tangled web we weave when we tangle to decieve. I wish you the best in your personal game. May the best man win.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Pattern-chaser »

SneakySniper179 wrote: February 10th, 2021, 8:49 pm In life there are systems you need to play and things you cannot say.

People with autism sometimes (often?) refuse to play these games, and they say the things that shouldn't be said. As a result, they are excluded from general society, much as lepers used to be. So it seems you're right, you must play the games, and say only what is acceptable, or society will not allow your participation. Is this what you're getting at?
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SneakySniper179
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by SneakySniper179 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 11th, 2021, 12:31 pm
SneakySniper179 wrote: February 10th, 2021, 8:49 pm In life there are systems you need to play and things you cannot say.

People with autism sometimes (often?) refuse to play these games, and they say the things that shouldn't be said. As a result, they are excluded from general society, much as lepers used to be. So it seems you're right, you must play the games, and say only what is acceptable, or society will not allow your participation. Is this what you're getting at?
That's exactly right.
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Papus79
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Papus79 »

As one of those spectrumites I can also add that there's another feature - some people just know they'd get nailed to a wall immediately because society gives them zero grace for being noticeably different in some manner or another. It's not the whole reason why autistics aren't keen on lies but the two dovetail.

The problem with Machiavellianism for me is the allowances get steep enough to be civilization-ending. By the time your culture starts looking like Game of Thrones it's dystopian and antiprogress. If we end up in neofeudalism it's dystopian and antiprogress. Pretty much anytime you have cannibalism or vampirism as a result, particularly with people burning other people like fuel rods and destroying their health because they need a means to pay their bills and you can drain so much blood out of them (think Robber Barons, company coal slaves, modern sweat shops, etc.) that their organs go into a slow failure mode and then what... it's their parents fault for having shagged... that's something I can't get behind and unfortunately the vampiric/cannibalistic goals of this sort of thing are the problem - Machiavellian tactics are really just the means. The trouble with Pareto distributions, differential success in Darwinian evolution, or really any kind of trap that leads toward social Darwinism is that it's a psychopathy generator function - it sets up a place eventually where you either worship violence with every in-breath, out-breath, and heartbeat or you're part of the slave class. It's part of why civilizations in the past have had harsh moral laws in the past, particularly when governmental structures were much less stable, sanitation was much worse, and direct physical violence was much more often the way things were settled - the results and tradeoffs were much more intuitively grasped.

As far as lies that are necessary to survive - that we have to guile the opposite or the gender of our preference is something of a sad state and it almost guarantees high divorce rate and partners as a fungible commodity (anyone who thinks they're actually a 'person' with 'value' and 'hopes and dreams' or 'goals' is absurdly overpricing themselves for what they really are - worthless meat fit for Subway employees to do slip-and-slides on after hours), it's a level of dysfunction that we simply haven't figured out how to solve, its everywhere in nature (notably cuttlefish, peacocks, etc.) and it's the vehicle for differential success - if there were a roadmap that could be followed it would not longer work as a genetic screening and filtering tool. This seems to be one of the core reasons why social status matters as much as it does, as well as it's a sort of dignity cartel where if you're high status things are good, if you're low status you're just about fit to be pushed down a flight of stairs for entertainment.

Now, if we're a blood-drinking sadistic species at our core, if it's what we want gratification of even more than we want progress, okay, but were at a point with technology where the domination and sadism party of genes killing genes out of sheer differential competitive urge can't go on much longer.

This is where I worry that so much of the bloody battle for gene dominance that we've played across all of history will almost guarantee our end unless we find some way to get over it and get the same things done in more reliably peaceful manner. What that looks like I don't know, just that if we don't see it we have extremely poor odds of making it through the next century or two.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by LuckyR »

All truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained. There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Sculptor1 »

SneakySniper179 wrote: February 10th, 2021, 8:49 pm I believe in being polite and kind. I believe in being as truthful as you possibly can. I believe in helping others but as much as I believe in all of this I do see the need for deception. Sometimes the truth won't cut it. Sometimes what you need is to lie....

It's a fine line, if you lie too much you a ****. If you never lie, you are lying. Life is like a chess game a lot of the time. You need to complete an objective. You need to win. It's either for the gain of yourself or the gain of others.

It's rarely for the gain of others but when it is, it's the most justified but it's still a lie. In life there are systems you need to play and things you cannot say. There are people who are unrespectable you need to respect. To their face you are kind. In your head, you are furious but to keep playing you are deceptive.

Everyone has encountered situations like this. You are living under a rock if you haven't. The best thing is, is to let the game play and to put the cards on the table as they come along. There are situations you don't have much control in but you need to play your way out in the best way. Looking for better options, the best option for a minimum impact.

When this game is played for fun is when things go wrong. If not used as a survival mechanism you use it for entertainment or illegal purposes. Everyone has done it. If you haven't you will. Saying everything on your mind is a flaw. Sadly we can't all be truthful. That's too easy and it can hurt.

Be careful though. Every lie told is a debt to be paid to the truth. If and when the walls come down everything comes down with it. Morality is subjective like most things. It all depends on the players, the game you are playing and why you play it.

Remember. It's a tangled web we weave when we tangle to decieve. I wish you the best in your personal game. May the best man win.
All very interesting, can't see what any of it has to be with Machiavellianism
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am All truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained. There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.
It's always best to start with the truth and only massage it when necessary.
Big lies are almost impossible to keep up. You have to have a fantastic memory. And when you have to lie, keep as close to the truth as possible..
NEVER say anything, at anytime to the police. They are masters of lying and and interested in the collar, they have no interest in justice.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Papus79 wrote: February 12th, 2021, 1:33 am As one of those spectrumites...

You too? That's three, including me and Greta, and perhaps there are more here too? Perhaps this is the world's only autist-friendly* philosophy forum? 😍

* - "Friendly" here is a relative term, as philosophers can sometimes lack a little in this regard. But here, at least, we seem to be treated with equal contempt. What more could we hope for? 😉😃
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am All truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained.
Why not?


LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.

To omit the details, when only a general idea is appropriate? Yes, of course. But to deliberately provide (not an approximation but) "inaccurate information"? I can see/imagine no justification for that. I'm supposing you can since you wrote it: what is it?
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Papus79 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 13th, 2021, 12:35 pm * - "Friendly" here is a relative term, as philosophers can sometimes lack a little in this regard. But here, at least, we seem to be treated with equal contempt. What more could we hope for? 😉😃
We're thinkers, this is the sort of place where we eat, so we have a knack for forcing the issue. :twisted:
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by baker »

LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 amAll truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained. There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.
That's so puritanical and bad-faithed! :p And implying that it's the questioner that unilaterally sets the terms of the discussion. You can say No (and there is a number of ways for saying No), and this doesn't mean lying.

Of course, if one gets involved in some ethically problematic interactions with others, then this is the primary issue to address, not that one will probably have to lie in those ethically problematic interactions in order to preserve a measure of wellbeing in them.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by SneakySniper179 »

Sculptor1 wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:13 am
SneakySniper179 wrote: February 10th, 2021, 8:49 pm I believe in being polite and kind. I believe in being as truthful as you possibly can. I believe in helping others but as much as I believe in all of this I do see the need for deception. Sometimes the truth won't cut it. Sometimes what you need is to lie....

It's a fine line, if you lie too much you a ****. If you never lie, you are lying. Life is like a chess game a lot of the time. You need to complete an objective. You need to win. It's either for the gain of yourself or the gain of others.

It's rarely for the gain of others but when it is, it's the most justified but it's still a lie. In life there are systems you need to play and things you cannot say. There are people who are unrespectable you need to respect. To their face you are kind. In your head, you are furious but to keep playing you are deceptive.

Everyone has encountered situations like this. You are living under a rock if you haven't. The best thing is, is to let the game play and to put the cards on the table as they come along. There are situations you don't have much control in but you need to play your way out in the best way. Looking for better options, the best option for a minimum impact.

When this game is played for fun is when things go wrong. If not used as a survival mechanism you use it for entertainment or illegal purposes. Everyone has done it. If you haven't you will. Saying everything on your mind is a flaw. Sadly we can't all be truthful. That's too easy and it can hurt.

Be careful though. Every lie told is a debt to be paid to the truth. If and when the walls come down everything comes down with it. Morality is subjective like most things. It all depends on the players, the game you are playing and why you play it.

Remember. It's a tangled web we weave when we tangle to decieve. I wish you the best in your personal game. May the best man win.
All very interesting, can't see what any of it has to be with Machiavellianism
Being deceitful and not being truthful for person gain is the definition of machiavellianism.
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LuckyR
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:19 am
LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am All truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained. There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.
It's always best to start with the truth and only massage it when necessary.
Big lies are almost impossible to keep up. You have to have a fantastic memory. And when you have to lie, keep as close to the truth as possible..
NEVER say anything, at anytime to the police. They are masters of lying and and interested in the collar, they have no interest in justice.
No. In fact it is nowhere near "always best" to tell the truth. It is often best or usually best, but you're either fooling yourself or autistic to seriously use "always" in this context.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 13th, 2021, 12:41 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am All truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained.
Why not?


LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.

To omit the details, when only a general idea is appropriate? Yes, of course. But to deliberately provide (not an approximation but) "inaccurate information"? I can see/imagine no justification for that. I'm supposing you can since you wrote it: what is it?
Only a tiny fraction of folks I converse with deserve my total truth, to begin with. Proof? Okay, what's your credit card number?

That pretty much proves omission, what about deliberate inaccuracy? If my mother in law asks if my young daughter wore the outfit she gifted her, my answer will be yes, when the truth is no. You can can say no, but what does that say about you? That you are a truthteller or that you are needlessly confrontational or cruel?
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by LuckyR »

baker wrote: February 13th, 2021, 4:12 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 amAll truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained. There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.
That's so puritanical and bad-faithed! :p And implying that it's the questioner that unilaterally sets the terms of the discussion. You can say No (and there is a number of ways for saying No), and this doesn't mean lying.

Of course, if one gets involved in some ethically problematic interactions with others, then this is the primary issue to address, not that one will probably have to lie in those ethically problematic interactions in order to preserve a measure of wellbeing in them.
You've got it wrong, I am proposing that it isn't the questioner who sets the terms of the discussion. Most folks don't deserve my total truth, that's what I meant by "omit information". I agree that not giving information that the other person doesn't deserve isn't lying, it is actually the correct course.

I wasn't even imagining ethically problematic situations, I was referring to common daily conversations. Watercooler conversations. Inaccurate replies are the social lubricant that makes office politics and business deals happen every day of the week.
"As usual... it depends."
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