Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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Sculptor1
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Sculptor1 »

SneakySniper179 wrote: February 13th, 2021, 4:40 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:13 am
SneakySniper179 wrote: February 10th, 2021, 8:49 pm I believe in being polite and kind. I believe in being as truthful as you possibly can. I believe in helping others but as much as I believe in all of this I do see the need for deception. Sometimes the truth won't cut it. Sometimes what you need is to lie....

It's a fine line, if you lie too much you a ****. If you never lie, you are lying. Life is like a chess game a lot of the time. You need to complete an objective. You need to win. It's either for the gain of yourself or the gain of others.

It's rarely for the gain of others but when it is, it's the most justified but it's still a lie. In life there are systems you need to play and things you cannot say. There are people who are unrespectable you need to respect. To their face you are kind. In your head, you are furious but to keep playing you are deceptive.

Everyone has encountered situations like this. You are living under a rock if you haven't. The best thing is, is to let the game play and to put the cards on the table as they come along. There are situations you don't have much control in but you need to play your way out in the best way. Looking for better options, the best option for a minimum impact.

When this game is played for fun is when things go wrong. If not used as a survival mechanism you use it for entertainment or illegal purposes. Everyone has done it. If you haven't you will. Saying everything on your mind is a flaw. Sadly we can't all be truthful. That's too easy and it can hurt.

Be careful though. Every lie told is a debt to be paid to the truth. If and when the walls come down everything comes down with it. Morality is subjective like most things. It all depends on the players, the game you are playing and why you play it.

Remember. It's a tangled web we weave when we tangle to decieve. I wish you the best in your personal game. May the best man win.
All very interesting, can't see what any of it has to be with Machiavellianism
Being deceitful and not being truthful for person gain is the definition of machiavellianism.
I think we mght need a bit more than that. Have you ever read The Prince?
What you describe in the OP is just day to day getting by.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:24 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:19 am
LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am All truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained. There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.
It's always best to start with the truth and only massage it when necessary.
Big lies are almost impossible to keep up. You have to have a fantastic memory. And when you have to lie, keep as close to the truth as possible..
NEVER say anything, at anytime to the police. They are masters of lying and and interested in the collar, they have no interest in justice.
No. In fact it is nowhere near "always best" to tell the truth. It is often best or usually best, but you're either fooling yourself or autistic to seriously use "always" in this context.
First you need to read more carefully and not just cerry pick.
Secondly I disagree with what you say, and I am not autistic.
I am at peace with myself and I insist that others take me and they find me. My life is not one lie after another. Maybe you should sort your **** out. People know what they are going to get from me. They now I'm not duplicious. Maybe you have a lesson to learn here.

On the matter of police, you should spend a little time watching this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&t=1200s

remaining silent is not lying.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: February 13th, 2021, 8:26 pm
LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:24 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: February 13th, 2021, 11:19 am
LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am All truth, all the time, is not a goal to be attained. There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.
It's always best to start with the truth and only massage it when necessary.
Big lies are almost impossible to keep up. You have to have a fantastic memory. And when you have to lie, keep as close to the truth as possible..
NEVER say anything, at anytime to the police. They are masters of lying and and interested in the collar, they have no interest in justice.
No. In fact it is nowhere near "always best" to tell the truth. It is often best or usually best, but you're either fooling yourself or autistic to seriously use "always" in this context.
First you need to read more carefully and not just cerry pick.
Secondly I disagree with what you say, and I am not autistic.
I am at peace with myself and I insist that others take me and they find me. My life is not one lie after another. Maybe you should sort your **** out. People know what they are going to get from me. They now I'm not duplicious. Maybe you have a lesson to learn here.

On the matter of police, you should spend a little time watching this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&t=1200s

remaining silent is not lying.
You do realize I have not advocated lying in any of my postings, right? Yet you keep referencing the practice. As you noted correctly, silence is NOT lying. That's what I said when I referred to "omitting information". You set the truth bar extremely high with your use of "always". Almost everyone I know can successfully circulate around a cocktail party in mixed company making small talk complete with undeserved compliments, avoiding unnecessary insults by glossing over pointing out trivial (and not so trivial) shortcomings. Are you saying you don't do that? That's fine, each to their own. More power to you, all I was doing was pointing out the rarity (not the absence) of the practice.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by chewybrian »

LuckyR wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:51 am You do realize I have not advocated lying in any of my postings, right?
I'm a simpleton, but it seems to me that you are. Of course, omitting information does not necessarily involve lying, unless perhaps you have the intent of giving a false impression by carefully giving only half the facts in a way designed to lead someone to come to the wrong conclusion. But, I can't see the difference between "providing inaccurate information" and lying, unless you honestly believed the inaccurate version, which didn't seem to be what you were implying.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 3:16 am There are numerous reasons to omit information and to provide inaccurate information.
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 13th, 2021, 12:41 pm To omit the details, when only a general idea is appropriate? Yes, of course. But to deliberately provide (not an approximation but) "inaccurate information"? I can see/imagine no justification for that. I'm supposing you can since you wrote it: what is it?
LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:33 pm Only a tiny fraction of folks I converse with deserve my total truth, to begin with. Proof? Okay, what's your credit card number?

There is some information that I do not think approriate to pass to you. Lying by omission is quite different.

But "deserve"? Who are you, that someone might have to "deserve" your truth, to earn it from you? Wow.

LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:33 pm ...what about deliberate inaccuracy? If my mother in law asks if my young daughter wore the outfit she gifted her, my answer will be yes, when the truth is no. You can can say no, but what does that say about you? That you are a truthteller or that you are needlessly confrontational or cruel?

Perhaps it might tell them (I'm autistic, and) I choose to be honest? I have paid the heaviest prices, over and over, throughout my life, for being honest. For refusing to lie to someone who asks me a question, then hopes I will lie to make them feel better. It is difficult to deal with people who need me to tell them how great they are, when they, and everyone else, knows it ain't so. Perhaps no-one should ask questions if they might find the answer upsetting?

This works both ways. I won't tell someone they're crap when they're actually rather special. Honesty is special. Lying and intentionally-deceptive inaccuracy is a non-necessary evil, using the words of the topic title, and there is no justification for it.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by baker »

LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:33 pmThat pretty much proves omission, what about deliberate inaccuracy? If my mother in law asks if my young daughter wore the outfit she gifted her, my answer will be yes, when the truth is no. You can can say no, but what does that say about you? That you are a truthteller or that you are needlessly confrontational or cruel?
What this does tell me is that your relationship with your mother in law is not a healthy one -- and this takes precedence over any other concerns and facts.

And when she finds out that you lied to her? Is that not going to be needlessly confrontational or cruel? Truth has a thing for becoming evident, sooner or later. Maybe when lying to her at first, you didn't hurt her feelings, but when she discovers the truth, don't you think her feelings will be hurt -- even more hurt?
And even more so, given that you told a lie about something relatively small -- IOW, you couldn't even tell her the truth about an outfit, that's how little you think of her and your relationship with her.

Or do the two of you have some kind of agreement to play the game of keeping up appearances?

LuckyR wrote: February 13th, 2021, 7:43 pmYou've got it wrong, I am proposing that it isn't the questioner who sets the terms of the discussion.
When people conceptualize the situation as "One either tells the truth, or one is lying", then they are giving the upper hand to the questioner.
Most folks don't deserve my total truth, that's what I meant by "omit information". I agree that not giving information that the other person doesn't deserve isn't lying, it is actually the correct course.
To me, when you put it like that, it sounds more like damage control.
I wasn't even imagining ethically problematic situations, I was referring to common daily conversations. Watercooler conversations. Inaccurate replies are the social lubricant that makes office politics and business deals happen every day of the week.
Which is what I would describe as "ethically problematic interactions". In such interactions, the problem isn't the lying, but that one is in such a situation to begin with. There is no way to act honorably in an unethical situation, other than to leave it.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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LuckyR wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:51 amAlmost everyone I know can successfully circulate around a cocktail party in mixed company making small talk complete with undeserved compliments, avoiding unnecessary insults by glossing over pointing out trivial (and not so trivial) shortcomings.
And so this culture of deceitfulness feeds off itself ... propagates itself ...
To what end?

If people would be honest with eachother to begin with, there'd be no need to give undeserved compliments, there'd be no need to avoid unnecessary insults because there'd be nothing to feel insulted about to begin with.

It's a vicious circle: One lies to others, and this feeds one's contempt (or at least dislike) for them, and this contempt makes one see others in a negative light, which then inspires one to lie to them, and so one feels even more contempt for them, and so on.


I just don't see why intelligent, productive people would/should engage in such charades. I realize that this is what many, if not most, people do. I just don't see an ethical justification for it. "The world sucks, so let's just add to this suckage!" --?? This is what granpa fought for in WWII??
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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SneakySniper179 wrote: February 10th, 2021, 8:49 pm Life is like a chess game a lot of the time. You need to complete an objective. You need to win. It's either for the gain of yourself or the gain of others.

It's rarely for the gain of others but when it is, it's the most justified but it's still a lie.
I guess it's fine to think of life as a game. One thing, though, is to think that life can be seen as a game, and another to think that life is indeed nothing but a game. It doesn't have to, and Machiavellianism therefore comes out as not being necessary, just an option.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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baker is correct, most people tell "white lies" as a social lubricant when it provides a short term gain or avoidance of a problem in a situation of minimal importance.

Pattern Chaser never does that but is honest enough to acknowledge the problems associated with doing so and uses the term autistic. BTW Pattern, you're making more of my "deserve" comment than I stated. Remember we agreed that I don't deserve to know your credit card number, that doesn't make you anything other than normal.

I am honest enough to own up to a very, very common practice that although I have no proof about individuals, statistically as a group the majority of folks who disagree with me are in fact lying about doing so.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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chewybrian wrote: February 14th, 2021, 5:47 am
LuckyR wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:51 am You do realize I have not advocated lying in any of my postings, right?
I'm a simpleton, but it seems to me that you are. Of course, omitting information does not necessarily involve lying, unless perhaps you have the intent of giving a false impression by carefully giving only half the facts in a way designed to lead someone to come to the wrong conclusion. But, I can't see the difference between "providing inaccurate information" and lying, unless you honestly believed the inaccurate version, which didn't seem to be what you were implying.
Just as the majority of communication is nonverbal, there is much more to lying than not providing accurate information.

One can bilk another out of every cent they own, yet technically not tell an untruth. Similarly one can provide comfort and avoidance of harm while telling an untruth.

Life (and communication) is more than a transcript.
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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LuckyR wrote: February 15th, 2021, 4:29 am
chewybrian wrote: February 14th, 2021, 5:47 am
LuckyR wrote: February 14th, 2021, 1:51 am You do realize I have not advocated lying in any of my postings, right?
I'm a simpleton, but it seems to me that you are. Of course, omitting information does not necessarily involve lying, unless perhaps you have the intent of giving a false impression by carefully giving only half the facts in a way designed to lead someone to come to the wrong conclusion. But, I can't see the difference between "providing inaccurate information" and lying, unless you honestly believed the inaccurate version, which didn't seem to be what you were implying.
Just as the majority of communication is nonverbal, there is much more to lying than not providing accurate information.

One can bilk another out of every cent they own, yet technically not tell an untruth. Similarly one can provide comfort and avoidance of harm while telling an untruth.

Life (and communication) is more than a transcript.
So, I guess you are advocating white lies but making the case that these do not amount to lies at all, because the intent is pure. I think this is a very slippery slope, and we can in fact lose sight of reality when we head down this path. Somehow, we think we can protect people from their existence by shielding them from it and building a false reality. "Happily ever after" seems kinder than "they all suffered and then died". But, hearing the lie doesn't transport you away from the truth. The more you see the truth as tragic, the more you try to run, and your suffering is increased in your denial by addiction, anxiety, depression, anger... So, you can start by trying to offer people an 'alternative' reality to make their life better, and end up with something like the crusades, ripping out people's intestines in the name of Jesus.

If, instead, you turn and face reality, I think you can accept it, resetting your expectations as often as necessary such that reality becomes the baseline, and the fear, dread and anxiety is removed. It's not easy, but it seems worth the effort to me.

I'm not saying I can manage this at all, but I do try. It's very difficult to be authentic, and the easiest path is to say nothing about important subjects to most people. Some people are going to fight the truth if it encroaches on their preferred alternate 'reality'. Whatever elements of reality conflict with their preferences must either be denied or seen as tragic. But, worthwhile friends, in whom you can confide, also expect and want the truth from you, and don't fear truth or run from it.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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chewybrian wrote: February 15th, 2021, 5:47 amIf, instead, you turn and face reality, I think you can accept it, resetting your expectations as often as necessary such that reality becomes the baseline, and the fear, dread and anxiety is removed. It's not easy, but it seems worth the effort to me.
But would you change jobs or even careers for this?
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

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baker wrote: February 15th, 2021, 6:36 am
chewybrian wrote: February 15th, 2021, 5:47 amIf, instead, you turn and face reality, I think you can accept it, resetting your expectations as often as necessary such that reality becomes the baseline, and the fear, dread and anxiety is removed. It's not easy, but it seems worth the effort to me.
But would you change jobs or even careers for this?
Definitely. However, good luck finding a job that allows you to be fully authentic. But, I've declined chances to move up in my job because I can't deal with the BS and hypocrisy at that level up. I don't see it as a loss. If you don't have the additional income, so you also don't have the burden of having to pretend to be something you are not, of praising someone you despise, or pretending to embrace the phony principles of a corporation that would cut you off in a second if they thought it would be to their advantage. It's just a matter of how deep in the sewer you can stand to wade. I feel like I am less miserable with less money and less sewage, but maybe I am missing something, even a chance to do more good with more income or more power(?).

Here is a take from Epictetus that addresses the issue quite effectively. You should put your peace of mind and virtue ahead of accomplishment, taking only whatever gain you can get without giving up yourself in the process. It's a goal, not a destination, and you will never arrive, unless maybe you wish to live in a clay pot in the city square...
24. Don't allow such considerations as these distress you. "I will live in dishonor, and be nobody anywhere." For, if dishonor is an evil, you can no more be involved in any evil by the means of another, than be engaged in anything base. Is it any business of yours, then, to get power, or to be admitted to an entertainment? By no means. How, then, after all, is this a dishonor? And how is it true that you will be nobody anywhere, when you ought to be somebody in those things only which are in your own control, in which you may be of the greatest consequence? "But my friends will be unassisted." -- What do you mean by unassisted? They will not have money from you, nor will you make them Roman citizens. Who told you, then, that these are among the things in our own control, and not the affair of others? And who can give to another the things which he has not himself? "Well, but get them, then, that we too may have a share." If I can get them with the preservation of my own honor and fidelity and greatness of mind, show me the way and I will get them; but if you require me to lose my own proper good that you may gain what is not good, consider how inequitable and foolish you are. Besides, which would you rather have, a sum of money, or a friend of fidelity and honor? Rather assist me, then, to gain this character than require me to do those things by which I may lose it. Well, but my country, say you, as far as depends on me, will be unassisted. Here again, what assistance is this you mean? "It will not have porticoes nor baths of your providing." And what signifies that? Why, neither does a smith provide it with shoes, or a shoemaker with arms. It is enough if everyone fully performs his own proper business. And were you to supply it with another citizen of honor and fidelity, would not he be of use to it? Yes. Therefore neither are you yourself useless to it. "What place, then, say you, will I hold in the state?" Whatever you can hold with the preservation of your fidelity and honor. But if, by desiring to be useful to that, you lose these, of what use can you be to your country when you are become faithless and void of shame.

25. Is anyone preferred before you at an entertainment, or in a compliment, or in being admitted to a consultation? If these things are good, you ought to be glad that he has gotten them; and if they are evil, don't be grieved that you have not gotten them. And remember that you cannot, without using the same means [which others do] to acquire things not in our own control, expect to be thought worthy of an equal share of them. For how can he who does not frequent the door of any [great] man, does not attend him, does not praise him, have an equal share with him who does? You are unjust, then, and insatiable, if you are unwilling to pay the price for which these things are sold, and would have them for nothing. For how much is lettuce sold? Fifty cents, for instance. If another, then, paying fifty cents, takes the lettuce, and you, not paying it, go without them, don't imagine that he has gained any advantage over you. For as he has the lettuce, so you have the fifty cents which you did not give. So, in the present case, you have not been invited to such a person's entertainment, because you have not paid him the price for which a supper is sold. It is sold for praise; it is sold for attendance. Give him then the value, if it is for your advantage. But if you would, at the same time, not pay the one and yet receive the other, you are insatiable, and a blockhead. Have you nothing, then, instead of the supper? Yes, indeed, you have: the not praising him, whom you don't like to praise; the not bearing with his behavior at coming in.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by LuckyR »

chewy, kudos to you for trying to live your truth. As I have said elsewhere there are a minority of folks (like Pattern Chaser apparently) who seek to travel this lonely high road.

Most (like myself) however, don't bring up our weaknesses at job interviews. I didn't discuss negative aspects of my character in my college application essay. I am ends focused. Others care more about process than outcome. That's fine. Not common, but fine.

Good on you.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Machiavellianism: A necessary evil

Post by LuckyR »

Semi-separate issue: we all acknowledge that advertising exists, right? Is this OK? I am trying to describe what could be thought of as "personal advertising".

We are all well versed in arguing a point, trying to influence others, debating an issue. By some accounts this is lying by omission. Not giving equal time to both sides.

What about discussing adult topics with children? Is it morally justified to alter that conversation?

We all agree truth is a goal, some aren't acknowledging that it's not the only goal.
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