Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

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gad-fly
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Re: Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

Post by gad-fly »

Scott wrote:
Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:When power becomes gracious and descends into the visible — such descent I call beauty. And there is nobody from whom I want beauty as much as from you who are powerful: let your kindness be your final self-conquest. Of all evil I deem you capable: therefore I want the good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws.
"When conscious will becomes gracious and manifests from the spiritual into the physical — such self-actualization I call beauty. And there is nobody from whom I appreciate such free-spirited beauty as much as from those who are powerful: let your kindness be the ultimate expression of self-discipline (a.k.a. spiritual freedom). Of extreme unkindness and selfish egotistical domination, I deem you capable: therefore I most appreciate loving restraint from you, the powerful. Indeed, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves righteous because they had no claws."
Scott,

I can find the following in your rephrasing:
1. power = conscious
2. descend = self-actualization
3. self-conquest = self-discipline
4. the good = loving restraint

I cannot see how you arrive at 1. On 2, the descent into visible is self-actualization? Should be actualization. On 3, self-conquest is self-discipline? Perhaps. On 4, I believe the good is more on being gracious than on restraint.

I am not one to worship idol, but I can see little room for improvement (even after all these years) on what Nietzsche has said so poignantly, tastefully, and poetically.
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Re: Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

Post by gad-fly »

Ecurb wrote: February 27th, 2021, 2:51 pm
Scott wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:17 pm
Friedrich Nietzsche wrote: Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws.
I have never shot anyone. Then again, I don't own a gun. I'll grant that I don't think myself "good" for never having shot anyone, but I think my innocence of murder is just as "good" as that of the gun owner. Why should he (or the clawed beast) get more credit than I? In fact, I think I'm BETTER than the man who keeps a loaded heater available in case of attack. Let's face it: that guy's a coward. If I don't need a firearm for protection, why should he?

I could grow claws (buy a gun), if I wanted to. But I don't want to, and, in fact, think myself (very slightly) superior to the coward who feels the need to grow them, a feeling born out of fear and cowardice, and one which is manifestly irrational (it's more dangerous to keep a personal protection firearm around, not less dangerous).
"Why should he (or the clawed beast) get more credit than I?"
Correct. Nietzsche has never said that, Nor has Scott implied that. You are fine as long as you do not feel superior for not having claws.

In essence, Nietzsche thinks it is better to have claws (something often beyond your control), but it is a beauty to exercise claws (and hence power) graciously. In this respect, he is not advocating some kind of Nazism. Don't get him wrong.
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Re: Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Ecurb wrote: February 28th, 2021, 11:26 am
Scott wrote: February 27th, 2021, 9:19 pm interesting example. Are you physically incapable of owning a gun? In other words, if you suddenly decided you really very much wanted to own a gun, could you make that happen?
Of course I could buy a gun. I live in the land of the 2nd Amendment.
In this case, by choosing to not exercise your power to get a gun (and shoot people), you are more like the creature with claws (the power to get a gun and shoot people), and unlike the "weakling" without claws (i.e. one who lacks the ability to even get a gun).

Indeed, I think you deserve more credit for not shooting people with guns than someone who physically cannot get a gun. Don't you?

Ecurb wrote: February 28th, 2021, 11:26 am Let's posit two mothers. One is a bear, the other a rabbit. Enter Mr. Fox, sniffing at the den and threatening to devour the babies. The bear, possessing size and great curved claws, charges at the fox and drives him away. The rabbit, having no claws with which to defend herself, also charges at the fox, kicking it with her powerful hind legs, and then racing away to get it to chase her. Who is the more noble? Is anyone (even Nietzsche) laughing at the rabbit?

If the rabbit had claws, her nobility would be less, not more.
Great point. Indeed, in addition to the self-restraint Nietzsche spoke of, I also admire and find beauty in bravery.

It is also interesting that the amount of kind self-restraint exercised is generally correlated with the level of relative power while bravery seems to be more often inversely correlated with the level power.

Your wise point can perhaps lead us to this realization: No matter the power dynamics of a situation, one can always exercise graceful beautiful admirable spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline). When one is the underdog, one can be brave and do the loving thing despite the danger and higher cost. When one is the overdog, one can exercise loving self-restraint rather than viciously dominating others (e.g. the bear not eating the babies himself) despite the ease with which they could dominate and victimize. While the fox has to worry about being harassed by a brave rabbit and a strong bear, the bear could unkindly eat the babies with much less risk and hassle. It would be so easy and risk-free for the bear to eat the delicious babies; it's as surprising as it is admirable and beautiful that the bear chooses loving self-restraint over delicious baby-eating.

As a vegetarian, I have a special personal respect for the bear's decision. I too do not eat rabbit babies. But any diet, vegetarian or otherwise, can require great grace and self-discipline to keep. Surely there are hungry days where the poor hungry bear is gazing at those delicious-looking rabbit babies but kindly and lovingly chooses not to eat them. I am really growing fond of this bear.



Scott wrote:
Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:When power becomes gracious and descends into the visible — such descent I call beauty. And there is nobody from whom I want beauty as much as from you who are powerful: let your kindness be your final self-conquest. Of all evil I deem you capable: therefore I want the good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws.
"When conscious will becomes gracious and manifests from the spiritual into the physical — such self-actualization I call beauty. And there is nobody from whom I appreciate such free-spirited beauty as much as from those who are powerful: let your kindness be the ultimate expression of self-discipline (a.k.a. spiritual freedom). Of extreme unkindness and selfish egotistical domination, I deem you capable: therefore I most appreciate loving restraint from you, the powerful. Indeed, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves righteous because they had no claws."
gad-fly wrote: February 28th, 2021, 7:31 pm Scott,

I can find the following in your rephrasing:
1. power = conscious
2. descend = self-actualization
3. self-conquest = self-discipline
4. the good = loving restraint

I cannot see how you arrive at 1. On 2, the descent into visible is self-actualization? Should be actualization. On 3, self-conquest is self-discipline? Perhaps. On 4, I believe the good is more on being gracious than on restraint.

1-- I did not rephrase power to conscious per se, but rather to conscious will. Would you find it more correct if instead of conscious will I used conscious willpower?

2. Yes, I believe self-actualization is an accurate term for the figurative descent of the figuratively heavenly spirit that is one's true self (i.e. their consciousness or non-supernatural spirit). Some would call this their 'higher self' or 'best self'.

4. Aside from self-discipline (namely loving self-restraint), what else do you believe Nietzsche means in this quote by wielding being gracious? How do you define grace? What do you see as being the relationship between grace and inner peace?

For reference, here is a link to my explanation of what the word grace means to me: What Grace Means to Me

gad-fly wrote: February 28th, 2021, 7:31 pm I am not one to worship idol, but I can see little room for improvement (even after all these years) on what Nietzsche has said so poignantly, tastefully, and poetically.
I don't speak German, so I wouldn't know.

I certainly think many newer translations of Nietzsche are preferable to older ones.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

Post by gad-fly »

Scott wrote: March 1st, 2021, 12:18 am
Scott wrote:
Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:When power becomes gracious and descends into the visible — such descent I call beauty. And there is nobody from whom I want beauty as much as from you who are powerful: let your kindness be your final self-conquest. Of all evil I deem you capable: therefore I want the good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws.
"When conscious will becomes gracious and manifests from the spiritual into the physical — such self-actualization I call beauty. And there is nobody from whom I appreciate such free-spirited beauty as much as from those who are powerful: let your kindness be the ultimate expression of self-discipline (a.k.a. spiritual freedom). Of extreme unkindness and selfish egotistical domination, I deem you capable: therefore I most appreciate loving restraint from you, the powerful. Indeed, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves righteous because they had no claws."
gad-fly wrote: February 28th, 2021, 7:31 pm Scott,

I can find the following in your rephrasing:
1. power = conscious
2. descend = self-actualization
3. self-conquest = self-discipline
4. the good = loving restraint

I cannot see how you arrive at 1. On 2, the descent into visible is self-actualization? Should be actualization. On 3, self-conquest is self-discipline? Perhaps. On 4, I believe the good is more on being gracious than on restraint.

1-- I did not rephrase power to conscious per se, but rather to conscious will. Would you find it more correct if instead of conscious will I used conscious willpower?

2. Yes, I believe self-actualization is an accurate term for the figurative descent of the figuratively heavenly spirit that is one's true self (i.e. their consciousness or non-supernatural spirit). Some would call this their 'higher self' or 'best self'.

4. Aside from self-discipline (namely loving self-restraint), what else do you believe Nietzsche means in this quote by wielding being gracious? How do you define grace? What do you see as being the relationship between grace and inner peace?

For reference, here is a link to my explanation of what the word grace means to me: What Grace Means to Me

gad-fly wrote: February 28th, 2021, 7:31 pm I am not one to worship idol, but I can see little room for improvement (even after all these years) on what Nietzsche has said so poignantly, tastefully, and poetically.
I don't speak German, so I wouldn't know.

I certainly think many newer translations of Nietzsche are preferable to older ones.
I take your rephrasing as a brave attempt to clarify/moderate/elaborate on what lies behind Nietzsche's head. I would tread gingerly and timidly if I were you.
1. Replacing "power" with "conscious willpower". Power can be conscious and subconscious. Power embraces more than willpower.
2. descent into the visible. can be compressed into "seen". Seeing something gracious is seeing something beautiful. Showing grace Is not self-actualization.
4. Power becoming gracious is good. Becoming gracious because of self-restraint only? I hope not.

I congratulate you on raising such a challenging thread which I have the fortune not to miss. I suggest we agree to disagree, and call it a day.
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Re: Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

Post by Belindi »

An objection to Christian myth and morality is that it is both other worldly and supportive of poverty and obedience to authority. 'Power' is either hypocritical or selfishly tribal.

Scott's paraphrase and the original translation of Nietzsche show how power, which after all is the driver of nature, can and sometimes is used to the glory of a God that is a God that will not be accomplished until the physical nature is accomplished.
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Re: Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

Post by -0+ »

Scott wrote: February 23rd, 2021, 3:17 pm The following quote is from Part II, Chapter 29, of Nietzsche's book, Thus Spoke Zarathustra:
Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:When power becomes gracious and descends into the visible — such descent I call beauty. And there is nobody from whom I want beauty as much as from you who are powerful: let your kindness be your final self-conquest. Of all evil I deem you capable: therefore I want the good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws.
Lao Tzu suggested that people only see beauty because they also see ugliness; they only view things as good because they also view things as evil.

Opposites like beauty and ugliness, good and evil, superior and inferior, etc, give birth to each other. They depend on each other for their imaginary existence. How can one be superior without someone else being inferior? How can any of these things be objectively measured?

A greater good requires a greater evil. This may explain why only those who Zarathustra deems capable of all evil are deemed capable of the good he desires, while he laughs at the idea that those who are deemed weak and incapable of evil can qualify as good.

Consider the opposites: powerful and weak. What is it that makes someone powerful and someone else weak? The presence or absence of claws?

Lions have claws. Most humans have fingernails. How can the power and capability of people to be "evil" (or extremely unkind and selfishly dominating) be measured?
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Re: Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

Post by Burning ghost »

We are all capable of evil and some of us more able to to dish out evil than others. Pretending you’re incapable of evil is a way of saying ‘I can do no evil therefore I am good!’.

What Nietzsche is saying here is that just because you’re inept it doesn’t make you ‘good’. Give a ‘weakling’ power and they’ll just demolish everything whilst believing they’re constructing something better. For this reason power quickly, and violently, disassociates itself from the ‘weak’. This that believe they are incapable of ‘evil’ are potentially the most dangerous individuals there are; if they happen to temporally attain some ‘claws’.
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Re: Nietzsche on beauty, power, kindness, and self-conquest (Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Part II)

Post by Belindi »

Burning ghost wrote: March 25th, 2021, 1:45 am We are all capable of evil and some of us more able to to dish out evil than others. Pretending you’re incapable of evil is a way of saying ‘I can do no evil therefore I am good!’.

What Nietzsche is saying here is that just because you’re inept it doesn’t make you ‘good’. Give a ‘weakling’ power and they’ll just demolish everything whilst believing they’re constructing something better. For this reason power quickly, and violently, disassociates itself from the ‘weak’. This that believe they are incapable of ‘evil’ are potentially the most dangerous individuals there are; if they happen to temporally attain some ‘claws’.
That is important because it points to the moral duty of every man to be as knowledgeable and reasonable as he can be. Human kindness depends on knowledge and reason.

Self knowledge of one's own shadow and its causes ,and everyone has shadow, is a perhaps the most valuable knowledge of all.
It is nice to see you again, Burning ghost
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