The ethics of flogging a dead horse

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Steve3007
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Steve3007 »

But just to clarify: Greta said that, where she lives (Australia), Chinese shops used to hang meat from hooks, Sculptor described that as a dig at China, he said where he lives (UK) non-Chinese shops used to do similar things, Greta said not a dig just a fact, Pattern-chaser backed up Sculptor's story about old-time UK shops, but preceded that comment with "I disagree...", Greta pointed out the Australia thing and said P-c was being over-sensitive, in her opinion, P-c said "over sensitive how?", Greta said "by referring to a harmless comments as a dig..." and so on.

Slow burning mild arguments based on webs of mutual misunderstanding can be quite funny. Remind me a bit of some of best sections of script from The Big Lebowski.
Steve3007
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:But don't we employ reductionism to help us in the process of seeking understanding?
You could say that. Or you could say that we use it in the process of managing complexity. i.e. reductionism helps us manage complexity in the same way that encapsulation in object oriented software engineering does.
Cling-filmed meat is surely an attempt to avoid understanding, and avoiding any appreciation of what it is we're actually doing? In that sense, it's the opposite of reductionism, isn't it?
If you see reductionism as seeking understanding, yes, I can see that it as the opposite. But if we see it as managing complexity, we could also call that "coping with". So we could view cling-film wrapping meat products as a way of coping with a world which is, as they say, red in tooth and claw.

So perhaps reductionism can be used for two purposes which look as though they have a common root but which diverge into being almost the opposite of each other. Or perhaps this actually tells us something a bit deeper about reductionism - that we think it's about understanding but it's actually about "coping with"?
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Papus79
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Papus79 »

Part of why I tend to frequent here and other relatively small forums - with higher quantity of people (think Tik Tok and Twitter) the tidal lock into group naval-gazing seems to just get exponentially worse. Here we can laugh it off, somewhere bigger we'd have the next emergent push for cancellation or some other runaway effect where people would just keep piling on the same original momentum to show where they stand (which would ultimately be because they can't find any greater meaning or purpose in life other than to exaggerate fine details, really ant hills at best, in the social landscape).
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Steve3007
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Steve3007 »

Yes, Papus79, I like to think that most of us here, while indulging in all of this tidal-locked group naval-gazing (great expression) have a healthy sense of the ridiculous waste of time that the whole thing is. I know I do. When the day comes when I finally write my last post on this forum I think I'll look back with satisfaction at a pleasantly pointless and futile collection of thousands of posts that could all easily disappear in an instant if someone in a server farm somewhere forgets to do the backup. A great nihilistic lesson in life.
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Papus79
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Papus79 »

Yeah, it's best when the multipolar traps stay small - ie. we don't stay pinned beneath them. Think we almost need a code word for when we've fallen into 'one of those' as a signal that everyone agrees that the thing just needs a flush and reset.
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Steve3007
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Steve3007 »

Papus79 wrote:Think we almost need a code word for when we've fallen into 'one of those' as a signal that everyone agrees that the thing just needs a flush and reset.
You make it sound like Fight Club! :D
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Papus79
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Papus79 »

Steve3007 wrote: March 15th, 2021, 11:20 am You make it sound like Fight Club! :D
I can't remember if I ever shared this or not (if I did it might have fallen off the map:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/m ... on-moloch/

Another article discussing how it translates into online behavior:
https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2020/01/16/t ... -of-beefs/

I think of Donald Hoffman's analogy with the Australian jewel beetle almost going extinct because the males were mating with beer bottles. Seems like the internet is full of various kinds of game theory traps where we tend to get sucked into moth self-immolation behavior. Not the most pleasant thing to contemplate for sure but I think the more people who are actually aware of these patterns the more can see them coming, say f--- that, and keep a life raft for sanity in any given situation.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Steve3007 wrote: March 15th, 2021, 10:31 am When the day comes when I finally write my last post on this forum I think I'll look back with satisfaction at a pleasantly pointless and futile collection of thousands of posts...
In the sense of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy's "mostly harmless", I would suggest that our posts are "mostly pointless and futile". There is worthwhile stuff posted here, and it seems reasonable to assume that some may learn something by reading it, no matter how rarely....
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Sculptor1
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Sculptor1 »

At the risk of getting out the birch to continue the flogging....

The images were not simply someone taking a seat on a dead horse, but smilling and waving into a selfie camera making a victory sign.
The image im my head was not so bad.
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Papus79
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Papus79 »

The question of meat and leather was brought up earlier - disrespecting an animal corpse is a bit like the kids at Subway doing slip-and-slides on deli meat or someone making some joke of a meat monument as a publicity stunt at a cookoff where no one's going to eat it. the ethical revulsion in the later case being - it's one thing for an animal to die and we consume it for food, it's a hard necessity, when it dies so we can play with its muscle tissue - that's where I think the philosophy of revulsion to antisocial behavior comes in.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 15th, 2021, 3:35 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 14th, 2021, 8:05 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 14th, 2021, 6:42 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 12th, 2021, 6:08 pm You are being over-sensitive IMO.
Over-sensitive how?
By referring to a clearly harmless observation as a dig. Whatever.
Wasn't the 'dig' from Sculptor?
Oops! Sorry about that. Mea culpa.

So yeah, Sculptor, there's no need to be over-sensitive about these things! I think we can say that another dead horse has been flogged enough, so to speak.
Ecurb
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Ecurb »

I haven't read most of this thread, so excuse me if I'm repeating others. There's a correlation between ethics and manners, but I minor one. Good manners are, I suppose, the codification of trivial ethics. You should wipe your mouth with your napkin after eating barbecued ribs (if you're not a vegetarian). You should write thank you notes to people who send you presents at your wedding. You shouldn't sit on dead horses.

Manners are designed to facilitate social interaction and please other people. To discourage social interaction and make others feel badly is rude. It is also "unethical" but only in a minor, trivial way. Chew with your mouth open, if you please, when you dine alone. Sit on dead horses, if you please, unless photographers are active in your area.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Ecurb wrote: March 15th, 2021, 10:26 pm I haven't read most of this thread, so excuse me if I'm repeating others. There's a correlation between ethics and manners, but I minor one. Good manners are, I suppose, the codification of trivial ethics. You should wipe your mouth with your napkin after eating barbecued ribs (if you're not a vegetarian). You should write thank you notes to people who send you presents at your wedding. You shouldn't sit on dead horses.

Manners are designed to facilitate social interaction and please other people. To discourage social interaction and make others feel badly is rude. It is also "unethical" but only in a minor, trivial way. Chew with your mouth open, if you please, when you dine alone. Sit on dead horses, if you please, unless photographers are active in your area.
OK, but in your last words, aren't you saying that we can behave as we like as long as we don't get caught?
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Ecurb
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Ecurb »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 16th, 2021, 5:50 am

OK, but in your last words, aren't you saying that we can behave as we like as long as we don't get caught?
Manners involve public behavior. There's nothing immoral about masturbation, unless you do it publicly. Immoral behavior (among other things) harms others. Public masturbation disgusts and embarrasses others, and is therefore immoral (and illegal). Sitting on dead horses harms nobody but yourself, if nobody sees you do it.

Of course you can harm others and hope you don't get caught (which is immoral), or you can hope you don't get caught sitting on dead horses (which would harm others only if you DO get caught). So be careful about using dead horses as chairs. Due diligence requires a degree of care, just as it does for masturbation.
Steve3007
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Re: The ethics of flogging a dead horse

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:In the sense of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy's "mostly harmless", I would suggest that our posts are "mostly pointless and futile". There is worthwhile stuff posted here, and it seems reasonable to assume that some may learn something by reading it, no matter how rarely....
Yes, funnily enough, as I was writing that, I remembered Slartibartfast in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy saying that he'd been looking forward to a quiet retirement learning the octahedral heebygeebyphone, a pleasantly futile task, he knew, because he had the wrong number of mouths. I always kind of identified with Slartibartfast.
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