An Argument Against Abortion

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Pattern-chaser »

HJCarden wrote: March 10th, 2021, 10:47 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: March 9th, 2021, 8:19 am
Given that there are 8,000,000,000 of us, our world does NOT neeed any more, especially if they are unwanted. So I believe, pragmatically, that an unwanted child may be terminated. Yes, the child is killed. Yes, in an ideal world, this would be avoidable and avoided. But in the real world, our choices are rarely simple. So I believe that the parents - and no-one else, individual or corporate - may decide not to have their baby; to kill it. But, to repeat, I agree that it would have been better if they didn't make a baby in the first place, if they didn't want it or were unable to care properly for it.

Ideal-world pronouncements are unhelpful in this difficult matter. I recommend pragmatism. And (human) population-reduction (no, not mass execution!).
The genocide argument in favor of abortion is not one that I am inclined to accept.

I agree; genocide is not something I would accept or recommend, and I didn't. Please read my text again, and I hope you will see that I added several 'asides' to confirm this, and thereby avoid objections such as you have just voiced. E.g "no, not mass execution!".
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Steve3007 »

HJCarden wrote:I do not believe that I have rushed to an extreme...
When I said that I just meant that you'd gone for an extreme end of the 9 month long spectrum which goes from "make it illegal to abort single celled embryos" all the way to "make it legal to abort 9 month gestation babies". Your stated reason for going to one extreme of that spectrum was to avoid being "stuck in a quagmire" as you put it. That's why I characterised it as you wanting to avoid mess, and why I opined that we can't avoid that mess.

If you want to talk to somebody who has gone to (actually slightly beyond) the other end of that spectrum, I'd suggest you talk to Terrapin Station, who's just recently chimed in on this topic.
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Steve3007 »

HJCarden wrote:It could be, but I do not think it is fair the extend it that far....
The point is that if you're trying to make an argument on the basis of consistency, which you are, then in order to be consistent, you have to follow your argument to where it leads. As I and Gertie (and possibly others) have pointed out, that leads you to absurdity. That should lead you to question your argument.
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by BobS »

HJCarden wrote: March 10th, 2021, 11:02 am I do not understand how the concept of willing something before you have a consciousness of it is incoherent. Say that your friends and family planned a surprise birthday party. You, being a humble person, chose not to celebrate your birthday lavishly, instead only opting for a small celebration with your close family. However, unbeknownst to you, a large gathering is being planned in your honor. Somewhat weirdly, one of your friends has been asking you things in the weeks preceding, such as what type of cake and beverages you most enjoy. At this point you have NO CONSCIOUSNESS of this gathering, but its fair that IF this gathering were to take place, you'd want chocolate cake and fine whiskey. Upon return home from work on your birthday, you are greeted by a big surprise gathering, with all of your favorite foods and drinks. Had you known of this, your preferences would not have been different.

This of course can only be loosely analogous to my original argument, but I hope it offers some enlightenment.
The fallacy is that you've now used the concept of "conscious" in two entirely different ways.

Until now, we've been discussing consciousness in the sense of sentience or awareness, a property that something may or may not have.

Being "conscious" of a birthday party is an entirely different matter. Claims of omniscience aside, no "conscious" being is "conscious" of all things. It proves nothing. And it certainly doesn't prove that a day-old fetus has a "conscious will," despite its lack of any "consciousness."
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Alias »

The second fallacy of the birthday party is that the person who did not know about the party was arguably conscious every minute of the time the party was being planned. And while the other people planning the party had the foresight to lay in the right details - food and drink - they overlooked the very same factor the HJCarden keeps overlooking: the party boy's actual wishes regarding a party. They wanted a party; therefore, they assumed he would want a party - when he, in fact, did not.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by LuckyR »

HJCarden wrote: March 10th, 2021, 10:53 am
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 4:14 am
So since you're not lobbying to make abortion illegal, is your point that when considering the issue of abortion from the fetal perspective, that it starts being a moral concern at conception, but that you choose not to consider the maternal view in this debate format, although you realize it too is an important issue (just one you choose to not address here?)
My argument implied that I believe the right of the fetus begins at conception, because that is a fair moment, from whence onwards, that one can will their existence and their life. I think that the maternal view is relevant up until that very moment. Discounting cases of rape or when a mother is not educated enough to know the results of unprotected sex, then the mother's view takes precedence. After conception, she is then exerting her will OVER the will of another being that has the right to will their existence from that point onwards.
That (the maternal interest subservient to the fetal) is one opinion, but should abortion be illegal?
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Count Lucanor »

HJCarden wrote: March 9th, 2021, 10:51 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:06 pm
HJCarden wrote: March 8th, 2021, 12:03 pmI have often heard the idea that a fetus is not conscious brought up in arguments concerning abortion, with this being used to justify the fetus as a "parasite" or not having a will of its own.
I'm pretty sure most arguments concerning the consciousness of a fetus have very little to do with "having a will" and other abstract notions of autonomy, and more to do with the level of suffering inflicted on the fetus, since it is the consciousness of pain that serves as a measure that triggers our empathic responses.
I agree that some arguments do deal with this, however I believe that the more stable grounding for my convictions is not in producing an empathetic response but rather a logical one, so I will not argue against points made counter to those that rely on ethos.
You're confusing the motivations that influence moral reasoning with the moral reasoning itself. The empathic responses may serve as a basis for our moral rules, but moral rules are prescriptive and convey a rational justification, therefore are moral arguments that can be dealt with logic. And if you choose to bypass them to focus on other arguments, you're actually avoiding important, relevant arguments on the issue. Add to that the fact that most concerns about consciousness of the fetus used in those arguments are not related to the abstract notions of autonomy you want to deal with.
HJCarden wrote: March 9th, 2021, 10:51 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:06 pm
HJCarden wrote: March 8th, 2021, 12:03 pm While I do allow that there is a large portion of a pregnancy in which the fetus is not conscious, I do not think this matters, as I believe that at conception is the moment where the conscious will of a person begins.
Besides your personal belief about this, what else can you offer that should be taken into account for the belief of others? I personally don't believe that there's a conscious will at the moment of conception, simply because I associate consciousness to the function of certain systems that are not yet developed in that initial stage. This latter assertion of yours is also at odds with your first assertion that the moment when the fetus is conscious is irrelevant to the moral issue.
To clarify my point, I believe that the moment that the systems that "come online" that we associate with consciousness are irrelevant to this argument.
You don't seem to realize the contradiction in which you have fallen and I already pointed out. You base your argument on your belief that " at conception is the moment where the conscious will of a person begins...", making this the claim to be contested, and then you assert that the moment where the conscious will of a person begins is irrelevant to the argument. If it is irrelevant, why don't you leave it out of your argument?
HJCarden wrote: March 9th, 2021, 10:51 pm
My point is that this clump of cells, uninhibited, will become a person like you and I who has wants and desires, feels pleasure and pain. I do not believe that the context of which this child is born into changes these fundamental aspects of personhood.
What you call "fundamental aspects of personhood" are questionable. Those are also the basic aspects of a mollusk and any vertebrate. Let's leave out for now that all these point to basic feelings or emotions, which you said were not to be considered in the arguments. In any case, that says very little about what a clump of cell will become as a sentient individual living in the world, given that sentient experience precisely becomes relevant in social life. Not everyone will go through the same wants, desires, pleasures and pains. A child could be born to be a feral child, or an abused or neglected child, or a child suffering from an horrible illness, etc. In fact, things like these are among the concerns of people who consent abortion practices. If what a person will become is part of the equation to determine the ethical stance of abortion, then you would have to allow its justification on the basis that the potential person will likely suffer a miserable life.
HJCarden wrote: March 9th, 2021, 10:51 pm
My point is meant to illustrate that we can conceive that our conscious will extends beyond our consciousness.
That conception is possible, but is completely contingent and relative to a cultural system. It is not a universal necessary or innate belief. It does not illustrate that people in fact must conceive conscious will extending beyond the time of death.
HJCarden wrote: March 9th, 2021, 10:51 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: March 8th, 2021, 11:06 pm
HJCarden wrote: March 8th, 2021, 12:03 pm
Therefore, I believe it is correct to assume that from the moment a person's life becomes possible (fertilization/conception/what have you) there is incredibly small reason to believe that person would will their life to be ended, which makes abortion a violation of their conscious will, despite it pre-dating consciousness.
There's no good reason to attribute "conscious will" to an embryo.
This comment misses the entire point of my argument that I was making. I readily admit that the embryo has no conscious will in it yet, but my argument is meant to show that this should be irrelevant.
I'm afraid your entire point is a blatant contradiction. You actually claimed that the presence of conscious will was the key part of your argument:

"abortion is wrong because it violates the conscious will of a person..." <-- perhaps you wanted to say that abortion is wrong because it prevents the possibility of producing a person with conscious will, but there are many things that could prevent this potential being to come into this world, including abstinence from sex.

"I believe that at conception is the moment where the conscious will of a person begins..." <-- perhaps you meant that conception is the moment where the possibility of having a person with conscious will begins, but you have failed to show why not allowing a potential to become a reality is morally wrong.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

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My argument is that barring an abortion or a miscarriage/medical emergency of some sorts, that WILL will exist. If I told my spouse that I will cheat on her, but I haven't yet, is she justified in divorcing me? My analogy to wishes after death is meant to show that we can conceive of respecting a person's wishes when they are not conscious or present with us. The last line of your post is exactly my argument, that although the fetus does not have those desires yet, barring an abortion or miscarriage they almost certainly WILL have those desires, and this is why abortion violates their will.
[/quote]

I sort of understanding where you are coming from, but the reality is that an aborted fetus WILL NEVER have those desires. Your analogy about the spouse being told about your future cheating is different because you two are legally bound by vows that you are to abide by. You have established an understood promise to stay faithful, which will probably hurt her feelings. It is my belief that that is why cheating is wrong because it would hurt the other person. Extramarital relations are not wrong if the other spouse does not care, ergo it is the pain that you would cause that spouse (knowing that you will cheat) that creates the grounds for divorce.
A fetus that is aborted will never know life, never experience this desire to live, and in most cases of abortion are not conscious sentient beings. At the time of the abortion, the fetus will have no desires one way or another and therefore does not matter what future will may or may not exist. Your comparisons of a fetus who has no understanding or awareness, to other adult humans who have a deeper understanding of the interworkings of life and society is equivalent to comparing apples to oranges. We can conceive of respecting a person's wishes (for the case of the deceased) for someone who has voiced those opinions, who has existed as a conscious being, who has put effort into formalizing their desires after death. However, objectively speaking, if I or you were aborted as a fetus, we would not know life or anything else for that matter. You claim that right now, you would not like to have been aborted as a fetus, based on your life experiences and understanding of the world. However, if you were aborted as a fetus, you would have no opinion on the matter, as you would have never had the chance to develop one.

The issue that I have with this argument is the implication that the natural "will" of the fetus (the eventual desire to live and stay alive) is greater than the will of an already conscious person, i.e. the mother.

So my question to you is: What makes the fetus' future, not yet existing, will a priority over the mother's existing will to not carry and birth a child?
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Inquinsitive_mind »

LuckyR wrote: March 9th, 2021, 4:08 am Any discussion of abortion that ignores the issue of the mother's autonomy, is at best incomplete, but more likely is intentionally misleading.
Nicely put, I wholeheartedly agree.
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by HJCarden »

LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 1:54 pm
HJCarden wrote: March 10th, 2021, 10:53 am
LuckyR wrote: March 10th, 2021, 4:14 am
So since you're not lobbying to make abortion illegal, is your point that when considering the issue of abortion from the fetal perspective, that it starts being a moral concern at conception, but that you choose not to consider the maternal view in this debate format, although you realize it too is an important issue (just one you choose to not address here?)
My argument implied that I believe the right of the fetus begins at conception, because that is a fair moment, from whence onwards, that one can will their existence and their life. I think that the maternal view is relevant up until that very moment. Discounting cases of rape or when a mother is not educated enough to know the results of unprotected sex, then the mother's view takes precedence. After conception, she is then exerting her will OVER the will of another being that has the right to will their existence from that point onwards.
That (the maternal interest subservient to the fetal) is one opinion, but should abortion be illegal?
I do not think the government should outlaw abortion. I just believe it is immoral.
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by HJCarden »

Inquinsitive_mind wrote: March 10th, 2021, 4:00 pm
So my question to you is: What makes the fetus' future, not yet existing, will a priority over the mother's existing will to not carry and birth a child?
I think that (I must say it again, disbarring cases of rape/lack of sex education) that the mother's will ceases to be the ONLY will to be considered. I think that things with a high degree of moral import, like the will to live of another person, that are going to exist are just as important as things that do exist right now. As for things with a much lower degree of moral import, I don't think it's necessary to make them a priority before they exist. But I place such a high value on human life that I believe it clears a threshold (which sits where, I do not have an exact answer) which gives it priority in consideration even before it can be said to "exist".
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by HJCarden »

Terrapin Station wrote: March 10th, 2021, 11:12 am
HJCarden wrote: March 8th, 2021, 12:03 pm I believe that abortion is morally wrong for a multitude of reasons, but in this post I will be arguing that abortion is wrong because it violates the conscious will of a person.
"Violating the conscious will of a person" wouldn't be my trump card in this issue. The will of the mother, who is serving as a container, where someone else is wholly contained within them, is the trump card on my view.
That's a fair argument to be made. However, one way that I could loosely interpret this is that if a certain degree of dependency holds, then the will of the one on whom the other is dependent (the mother's will) is more important. This is not appealing to me, as I believe that a 1 month old baby is just as dependent on the mother as a 5 month old fetus. If the only morally relevant issue is wether the child is inside the mother or not, then that would lead me to believe that aborting a fetus 1 day before it can be birthed is entirely morally permissible, and that just does not feel right to me. That is why I argue that beginning at the moment of conception is when an abortion becomes immoral, because I do not think it is fair to draw the line at any certain point of the mother being a container. In a sense, I think a consenting and knowledgable mother forfeits her right to be the only moral agent in the scenario when a child is conceived.
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Steve3007 »

HJCarden wrote:But I place such a high value on human life that I believe it clears a threshold (which sits where, I do not have an exact answer) which gives it priority in consideration even before it can be said to "exist".
That is an extraordinarily high priority and, as discussed in various previous posts starting with Scott (post #2), and going through various posters including me and Gertie, if followed consistently it leads to absurdity. And the fact that you've declared in the topic's title and opening post that you're seeking to make an argument and not merely express an isolated personal preference suggests that you value consistency, because consistency is what making arguments is about.

If you did seek to simply express a preference, without wanting to present an argument, you could just say "I think it's wrong to abort single celled embryos" and leave it there.
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Alias »

HJCarden wrote: March 11th, 2021, 11:02 am ... I believe that a 1 month old baby is just as dependent on the mother as a 5 month old fetus.
Then you would be wrong. If the mother is unable or unwilling to care for a 5-month-old baby, then other people can take it away and care for it. They very often do.
If the only morally relevant issue is wether the child is inside the mother or not,
It's not an inside-outside question; it's a question of viability.
then that would lead me to believe that aborting a fetus 1 day before it can be birthed is entirely morally permissible, and that just does not feel right to me.
Which is the whole point of the stage of gestation debate you so easily brushed aside on page 1.
That is why I argue that beginning at the moment of conception is when an abortion becomes immoral, because I do not think it is fair to draw the line at any certain point of the mother being a container.
And that is why the medical community who understands foetal better then you do, is consulted in making the legal decisions, as to when a foetus becomes conscious, and when it is capable of surviving - with technical assistance or on its own - outside the uterus.
In a sense, I think a consenting and knowledgable mother
That cuts the numbers in half, right there.
forfeits her right to be the only moral agent in the scenario when a child is conceived.
And she's supposed to know when that happens?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Re: An Argument Against Abortion

Post by Terrapin Station »

HJCarden wrote: March 11th, 2021, 11:02 am
Terrapin Station wrote: March 10th, 2021, 11:12 am
HJCarden wrote: March 8th, 2021, 12:03 pm I believe that abortion is morally wrong for a multitude of reasons, but in this post I will be arguing that abortion is wrong because it violates the conscious will of a person.
"Violating the conscious will of a person" wouldn't be my trump card in this issue. The will of the mother, who is serving as a container, where someone else is wholly contained within them, is the trump card on my view.
That's a fair argument to be made. However, one way that I could loosely interpret this is that if a certain degree of dependency holds, then the will of the one on whom the other is dependent (the mother's will) is more important. This is not appealing to me, as I believe that a 1 month old baby is just as dependent on the mother as a 5 month old fetus. If the only morally relevant issue is wether the child is inside the mother or not, then that would lead me to believe that aborting a fetus 1 day before it can be birthed is entirely morally permissible, and that just does not feel right to me. That is why I argue that beginning at the moment of conception is when an abortion becomes immoral, because I do not think it is fair to draw the line at any certain point of the mother being a container. In a sense, I think a consenting and knowledgable mother forfeits her right to be the only moral agent in the scenario when a child is conceived.
It's not about dependency to me. Simply about serving as a container versus being (wholly) contained.
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