Work

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SneakySniper179
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Work

Post by SneakySniper179 »

Are you complicit in the job you do if you work for someone who doesn't have an ethical job. Say you were a telemarketer or a bill collector but you didn't work on the phones. You did behind the scenes work, is that the same as doing the job yourself. Someone I know worked in bill collection and we just had an argument and I want to see others opinions. She did account management.

I don't personally give a **** either way, bills need to he paid and if you don't pay them they call you. They want their money but I believe it's what you do to get them to pay. But if I personally didn't work on the phones and I worked behind the scenes would I be complicit.

I personally look at it in an extreme context as if I was working for the mob as an accountant or some other shady business and I said. "I'm not doing it but all I do is handle the money behind it". I think you would have to say that you are involved and responsible either way. Though your involvement is on the purely business sense it's still involvement.

As I said before, I personally don't care. They made their money how they had to but I don't see it as a separation from being on the phones and handling the money. It's just a moral seperation. It's not exactly the same but without you their job would be futile. Without them saying whatever you have to you wouldn't have money to count.

Whatever your involvement is, you are still involved. Like burying a body of a person you didn't kill. You are guilty, not as guilt but you played your part in whatever it was. I choose to work a **** job because I don't want to do something for the money. I'd rather work at a place I want to work at and that was the same argument we had.

Sure we could have had more income and I am glad she quit her job because it was a cold job but at the same time we got less because of it. That was her ethics and I can't say they were wrong but you can't wash your hands of things if you are doing a small point of a job. Things are built from the ground up. Things work in systems and have small parts from each person to make something happen.

A good part would be the US Legal system.

A man goes to jail, then the jury of 12 makes a decision in this case it's the death penality, the governor I believe signs off, then they get transferred to death row, during the execution the man is strapped dow, he is prepped with alcohol and a needle is placed in his arm, someone else helps out, then someone releases the chemicals, he dies.

All that transpired through so many people that you can say not one person killed him and you didn't do anything or you did everything. During the firing squad they give some men blanks so they can sleep at night. They do this never knowing if they took a life, they can always say to themselves that they didn't do it and had the blanks never knowing what actually happened.
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LuckyR
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Re: Work

Post by LuckyR »

Of course opinions will differ, everyone knows that. What gets much less consideration is that working for a living is essentially mandatory, whereas numerous other conflicted situations are optional. Thus individuals have much less freedom to choose when it comes to jobs, thus in my opinion, there is less individual responsibility in that arena.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Work

Post by Sculptor1 »

SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 7:45 pm Are you complicit in the job you do if you work for someone who doesn't have an ethical job. Say you were a telemarketer or a bill collector but you didn't work on the phones. You did behind the scenes work, is that the same as doing the job yourself. Someone I know worked in bill collection and we just had an argument and I want to see others opinions. She did account management.
The question is circular. Volunteering for a job is complicity with it. No question.
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LuckyR
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Re: Work

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 9:19 am
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 7:45 pm Are you complicit in the job you do if you work for someone who doesn't have an ethical job. Say you were a telemarketer or a bill collector but you didn't work on the phones. You did behind the scenes work, is that the same as doing the job yourself. Someone I know worked in bill collection and we just had an argument and I want to see others opinions. She did account management.
The question is circular. Volunteering for a job is complicity with it. No question.
Do you consider employment voluntary?
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Work

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: March 11th, 2021, 12:36 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 9:19 am
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 7:45 pm Are you complicit in the job you do if you work for someone who doesn't have an ethical job. Say you were a telemarketer or a bill collector but you didn't work on the phones. You did behind the scenes work, is that the same as doing the job yourself. Someone I know worked in bill collection and we just had an argument and I want to see others opinions. She did account management.
The question is circular. Volunteering for a job is complicity with it. No question.
Do you consider employment voluntary?
Yes
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LuckyR
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Re: Work

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 3:36 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 11th, 2021, 12:36 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 9:19 am
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 7:45 pm Are you complicit in the job you do if you work for someone who doesn't have an ethical job. Say you were a telemarketer or a bill collector but you didn't work on the phones. You did behind the scenes work, is that the same as doing the job yourself. Someone I know worked in bill collection and we just had an argument and I want to see others opinions. She did account management.
The question is circular. Volunteering for a job is complicity with it. No question.
Do you consider employment voluntary?
Yes
Cool. Poor folks should move to where you live.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Work

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 2:11 am
Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 3:36 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 11th, 2021, 12:36 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 9:19 am

The question is circular. Volunteering for a job is complicity with it. No question.
Do you consider employment voluntary?
Yes
Cool. Poor folks should move to where you live.
Tut tut.
People have to accept the consequences of their actions, including the jobs they do. If not we are lost.
Choices are often limted, but there are choices. When you make one you have to take responsibility.
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runaway
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Re: Work

Post by runaway »

I am going to say that you would not be complicit. Doing the behind the scenes work for an immoral organisation means that you are helping a bad organisation. However, that is not the same as being the person carrying out the unethical activities. As an example, a paramedic who saves the life of a gangster who murders people would not be thought to be complicit/involved in the gangster murdering people.
Steve3007
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Re: Work

Post by Steve3007 »

I think the fact that working for a living is not entirely voluntary is a key part of the argument against the Libertarians who argue that our labour can be seen as a commodity that we can choose to sell to the highest bidder and that therefore it should be entirely governed by the free market concept, and that there shouldn't be things like a legally enforced minimum wage. The reason I disagree with those Libertarians about that is that labour isn't like that. We're not entirely free to sell it to whom we choose.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Work

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Steve3007 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:44 am I think the fact that working for a living is not entirely voluntary is a key part of the argument against the Libertarians who argue that our labour can be seen as a commodity that we can choose to sell to the highest bidder and that therefore it should be entirely governed by the free market concept, and that there shouldn't be things like a legally enforced minimum wage. The reason I disagree with those Libertarians about that is that labour isn't like that. We're not entirely free to sell it to whom we choose.

Yes, survival in the world we have built is dependent on being able to obtain food, drink, shelter, etc. And for that, in our world, we need an income, a wage. So we must work. It isn't voluntary, if we accept that surviving is not a voluntary thing?
Pattern-chaser

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LuckyR
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Re: Work

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:33 am
LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 2:11 am
Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 3:36 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 11th, 2021, 12:36 pm

Do you consider employment voluntary?
Yes
Cool. Poor folks should move to where you live.
Tut tut.
People have to accept the consequences of their actions, including the jobs they do. If not we are lost.
Choices are often limted, but there are choices. When you make one you have to take responsibility.
Well, you are implying that the social safety net in your area makes employment voluntary ie optional. Congrats. That is one of the "choices" you are referring to, right?
"As usual... it depends."
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runaway
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Re: Work

Post by runaway »

LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 12:45 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:33 am
LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 2:11 am
Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 3:36 pm

Yes
Cool. Poor folks should move to where you live.
Tut tut.
People have to accept the consequences of their actions, including the jobs they do. If not we are lost.
Choices are often limted, but there are choices. When you make one you have to take responsibility.
Well, you are implying that the social safety net in your area makes employment voluntary ie optional. Congrats. That is one of the "choices" you are referring to, right?
At that rate we can make the world a more ethical place by sitting at home and living off unemployment.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Work

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 12:45 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:33 am
LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 2:11 am
Sculptor1 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 3:36 pm

Yes
Cool. Poor folks should move to where you live.
Tut tut.
People have to accept the consequences of their actions, including the jobs they do. If not we are lost.
Choices are often limted, but there are choices. When you make one you have to take responsibility.
Well, you are implying that the social safety net in your area makes employment voluntary ie optional. Congrats. That is one of the "choices" you are referring to, right?
Starvation and poverty is also a choice in this respect.
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LuckyR
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Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Work

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 1:17 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 12:45 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:33 am
LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 2:11 am

Cool. Poor folks should move to where you live.
Tut tut.
People have to accept the consequences of their actions, including the jobs they do. If not we are lost.
Choices are often limted, but there are choices. When you make one you have to take responsibility.
Well, you are implying that the social safety net in your area makes employment voluntary ie optional. Congrats. That is one of the "choices" you are referring to, right?
Starvation and poverty is also a choice in this respect.
So employment isn't voluntary for the (substantial) subset of humans who happen to want to live (not die from starvation), right?
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Work

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:56 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 1:17 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 12th, 2021, 12:45 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:33 am
Tut tut.
People have to accept the consequences of their actions, including the jobs they do. If not we are lost.
Choices are often limted, but there are choices. When you make one you have to take responsibility.
Well, you are implying that the social safety net in your area makes employment voluntary ie optional. Congrats. That is one of the "choices" you are referring to, right?
Starvation and poverty is also a choice in this respect.
So employment isn't voluntary for the (substantial) subset of humans who happen to want to live (not die from starvation), right?
Yes, life is also voluntary.
Rising up against the system is also a choice. Or accepting the system and allowing yourself to become a cog in the machine that destroys the earth is also a choice.

Most people take the easy way out and pretend that they are not destroying the earth, and fail to take responsibility for playing their part.
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