Thoughts on street justice

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SneakySniper179
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Thoughts on street justice

Post by SneakySniper179 »

A few years ago I saw this video that took place in brazil. It was of a girl who was murdered by her boyfriend. She was 14 I believe and he was in his 20s. The police station was broken into by a mob of people. He was taken out to the streets and his fate was dictated by a crowd.

The proceeded to kick him and beat him with foreign objects. The lit him on fire and set fireworks off under him. A man proceeded to pick him up and slam him around. They were **** this kid up in everyway possible. His crime was heinous. He stabbed this young girl a bunch of times and beat the **** out of her If I believe.

I'm curious to see if that was justifiable. How much should the legal system have in the way of the town. If someone is that heinous should they take that punishment. In my heart I know they were wrong and right. I would expect nothing less from them and I am glad they dished it out.

I feel for the kids family but not for the person. There is a conflict I have with that situation because of the expelled brutality I don't see them as any different but at the same time the kid kinda deserve it. I ask you to not look at this with a civilized world view but a person in a Brazilian slum.

I believe it's too easy to make judgements on such things as a life you cannot truly fathom. I am just curious on your take on this as it was proven to be true.
evolution
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by evolution »

SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm A few years ago I saw this video that took place in brazil. It was of a girl who was murdered by her boyfriend. She was 14 I believe and he was in his 20s. The police station was broken into by a mob of people. He was taken out to the streets and his fate was dictated by a crowd.

The proceeded to kick him and beat him with foreign objects. The lit him on fire and set fireworks off under him. A man proceeded to pick him up and slam him around. They were **** this kid up in everyway possible. His crime was heinous. He stabbed this young girl a bunch of times and beat the **** out of her If I believe.
What do you mean by "if you believe"?

Did what you said happened, happen or not?
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm I'm curious to see if that was justifiable.
Of course 'it' was not.
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm How much should the legal system have in the way of the town.
This question, which has no question mark by the way, makes no sense.
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm If someone is that heinous should they take that punishment.
What does "that heinous" actually mean?

What did that human being, actually, do?
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm In my heart I know they were wrong and right. I would expect nothing less from them and I am glad they dished it out.
So, you are glad that 'they' did something, which you know was wrong, correct?
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm I feel for the kids family but not for the person.
Who cares who or what you 'feel' for?

Also, if it was turned around and that happened to that 'person', then would you still feel the same for 'the person'?
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm There is a conflict I have with that situation because of the expelled brutality I don't see them as any different but at the same time the kid kinda deserve it.
You will really have to start identifying more accurately who is who here if you want to discuss this further. There was only one 'kid' here, and you are now saying that 'they' " kinda deserve 'it' ".

So, what did the girl do to deserve being stabbed and beaten?
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm I ask you to not look at this with a civilized world view but a person in a Brazilian slum.
Are you under some sort of illusion that people in brazilian slums do not or are not capable of having, so called, "civilized world view"?

SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm I believe it's too easy to make judgements on such things as a life you cannot truly fathom.
Yet here you are providing examples of just how easy it is for people to form, have, and make judgments. You have clearly shown and proven just how Truly easy it was and is to make judgments.
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm I am just curious on your take on this as it was proven to be true.
'What', exactly, was, supposedly, proven to be true?
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LuckyR
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by LuckyR »

SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm A few years ago I saw this video that took place in brazil. It was of a girl who was murdered by her boyfriend. She was 14 I believe and he was in his 20s. The police station was broken into by a mob of people. He was taken out to the streets and his fate was dictated by a crowd.

The proceeded to kick him and beat him with foreign objects. The lit him on fire and set fireworks off under him. A man proceeded to pick him up and slam him around. They were **** this kid up in everyway possible. His crime was heinous. He stabbed this young girl a bunch of times and beat the **** out of her If I believe.

I'm curious to see if that was justifiable. How much should the legal system have in the way of the town. If someone is that heinous should they take that punishment. In my heart I know they were wrong and right. I would expect nothing less from them and I am glad they dished it out.

I feel for the kids family but not for the person. There is a conflict I have with that situation because of the expelled brutality I don't see them as any different but at the same time the kid kinda deserve it. I ask you to not look at this with a civilized world view but a person in a Brazilian slum.

I believe it's too easy to make judgements on such things as a life you cannot truly fathom. I am just curious on your take on this as it was proven to be true.
As you sort of allude to without saying directly, very few (especially on this Forum) would condone this action. You made the point though to look at this from the perspective of a Brazilian slum, yet provided no insight into the differences between such slums as would impact this case. What are you referring to?
"As usual... it depends."
SneakySniper179
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by SneakySniper179 »

I'm going to reply back to both of you and make a statement only once and that's how it's going to be.

I believe everyone in there hearts knows that street justice is wrong but to say you wouldn't take any kinda solace in the use isn't true. You are all humans like the rest of them and they took great pleasure in doing that. It's barbaric overkill but I believe a lot more people than you may belief would enjoy that had it been a member of your family or someone you love.

The story happened but I read it and saw it a long time ago so the details were hazy. I do know the girl wasn't only 18 and I was talking about the punk kid when I said kid. Not the girl. It seems the subtly went over your head as did everything else.

No. I do not believe the slums have a civilized world view to the extent that most developed countries have. They have no formal education and live in sheet metal houses. They live day to day. Doesn't mean they are savages, just means that they are not as civilized.

I would say that with these protest that happened a few months ago we saw that humanity hasn't changed much. We are still the same people who lived in the past. The only difference between them and us is we have education and what I would believe is a capiabliity to develop morals.

The final statement I have to add is this. If you choose to quote the whole thing I will not respond to you. If you missed all the points you have some kinda defect. I assume it's because subtly is lost through text but read between the lines.
Steve3007
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by Steve3007 »

SneakySniper179 wrote:I'm curious to see if that was justifiable.
No, in my view it wasn't. He was innocent until found beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty. No matter how heinous the alleged crime, if we don't stick to that principle then we give up on the whole concept of justice. We open the door to things like paediatricians being lynched by people who don't know the difference between a paediatrician and a paedophile.
Steve3007
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by Steve3007 »

I believe everyone in there hearts knows that street justice is wrong but to say you wouldn't take any kinda solace in the use isn't true. You are all humans like the rest of them and they took great pleasure in doing that. It's barbaric overkill but I believe a lot more people than you may belief would enjoy that had it been a member of your family or someone you love.
I agree, but I don't think my personal, vengeful joy can be the basis of a justice system. I think the opposite. I think, especially in cases of violent crimes which provoke very strong immediate reactions of disgust and horror, the families of the victims of the crime should explicitly not be involved in the process of judging the case and deciding the proper punishment if the accused is found guilty.
SneakySniper179
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by SneakySniper179 »

I agree and disagree because the systems can get you off. They might never serve time and I doubt there is a jury system. It was wrong but this man did that ****. I find it **** up but I am not sure if they are as bad as him.

It seems to be an old world Punishment and they are not living in the modern world. There's worse punishments for much worse in the middle east. If your an american or a women just kill yourself because your not getting a fair trial. Though I know it's wrong I want to know the stance on if you believe everyone involved is as guilt

I also what to know if that happened to your kid in that situation would you participate or even give a ****. I am not sure today where I would stand. I would like to say I wouldn't be involved but I do not know.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by Sculptor1 »

SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm A few years ago I saw this video that took place in brazil. It was of a girl who was murdered by her boyfriend. She was 14 I believe and he was in his 20s. The police station was broken into by a mob of people. He was taken out to the streets and his fate was dictated by a crowd.

The proceeded to kick him and beat him with foreign objects. The lit him on fire and set fireworks off under him. A man proceeded to pick him up and slam him around. They were **** this kid up in everyway possible. His crime was heinous. He stabbed this young girl a bunch of times and beat the **** out of her If I believe.

I'm curious to see if that was justifiable. How much should the legal system have in the way of the town. If someone is that heinous should they take that punishment. In my heart I know they were wrong and right. I would expect nothing less from them and I am glad they dished it out.

I feel for the kids family but not for the person. There is a conflict I have with that situation because of the expelled brutality I don't see them as any different but at the same time the kid kinda deserve it. I ask you to not look at this with a civilized world view but a person in a Brazilian slum.

I believe it's too easy to make judgements on such things as a life you cannot truly fathom. I am just curious on your take on this as it was proven to be true.
If it is justified then each of them should be prepared to face the same punishment for what they did to him.
SneakySniper179
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by SneakySniper179 »

But they won't. Justified or not.
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LuckyR
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by LuckyR »

SneakySniper179 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 3:36 am No. I do not believe the slums have a civilized world view to the extent that most developed countries have. They have no formal education and live in sheet metal houses. They live day to day. Doesn't mean they are savages, just means that they are not as civilized.
So do you feel formal education is required or helpful to develop a contemporary moral code?

Obviously I agree with you that there is a difference in ethical standards in different areas, though confidence in the quality of the justice system is IMO is a significant portion of that in the realm of vengeance.
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SneakySniper179
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by SneakySniper179 »

LuckyR wrote: March 11th, 2021, 12:45 pm
SneakySniper179 wrote: March 11th, 2021, 3:36 am No. I do not believe the slums have a civilized world view to the extent that most developed countries have. They have no formal education and live in sheet metal houses. They live day to day. Doesn't mean they are savages, just means that they are not as civilized.
So do you feel formal education is required or helpful to develop a contemporary moral code?

Obviously I agree with you that there is a difference in ethical standards in different areas, though confidence in the quality of the justice system is IMO is a significant portion of that in the realm of vengeance.
To an extent. I believe formal education creates a resentment towards education in general. A lot of kids get out of high school and say hey, I am finally done learning but in reality you learn until the day you die and maybe even after that. You never stop learning and if you say you are done you reside yourself to a lifetime of ignorance.
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by Thomyum2 »

SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm A few years ago I saw this video that took place in brazil. It was of a girl who was murdered by her boyfriend. She was 14 I believe and he was in his 20s. The police station was broken into by a mob of people. He was taken out to the streets and his fate was dictated by a crowd.

The proceeded to kick him and beat him with foreign objects. The lit him on fire and set fireworks off under him. A man proceeded to pick him up and slam him around. They were **** this kid up in everyway possible. His crime was heinous. He stabbed this young girl a bunch of times and beat the **** out of her If I believe.

I'm curious to see if that was justifiable. How much should the legal system have in the way of the town. If someone is that heinous should they take that punishment. In my heart I know they were wrong and right. I would expect nothing less from them and I am glad they dished it out.

I feel for the kids family but not for the person. There is a conflict I have with that situation because of the expelled brutality I don't see them as any different but at the same time the kid kinda deserve it. I ask you to not look at this with a civilized world view but a person in a Brazilian slum.

I believe it's too easy to make judgements on such things as a life you cannot truly fathom. I am just curious on your take on this as it was proven to be true.
When you say this 'was proven to be true', I'm not sure if you mean that the crime itself was proven, or the incident of crowd justice was proven - that would have an important bearing on my take on this.

But aside from that, my thought is that you can break this down into two interesting philosophical questions. The first is: If we assume that the facts you've given about the crime are complete and true, was the resulting punishment just? The answer to that, in my opinion, is going to vary a lot on each person's perspective and how they are or were affected by the events and/or their capacity for forgiveness, their knowledge of the individuals and circumstances involved, etc. - and so is ultimately going a pretty subjective one.

But the second question - and I think the more important and interesting one - is: If we don't take it for granted that facts are complete and/or true, then what does that say about this manner of justice? Can an angry mob of people really be relied upon to fairly administer justice? Have they done the due diligence to make sure that none of the facts are in doubt? Have they considered the mitigating factors - e.g. was the murderer of sound mind? what were the motivations or circumstances? do they show any remorse for their actions? are they likely to repeat the offence?

For me, this brings to mind a quote by William James in his essay "The Moral Philosopher and the Moral Life":
For every real dilemma is in literal strictness a unique situation; and the exact combination of ideals realized and ideals disappointed which each decision creates is always a universe without a precedent, and for which no adequate previous rule exists.
I find myself returning to this idea often - that moral questions are always unique and require an intimate knowledge of the details of the case. Proper justice requires that we take the time to understand the circumstances clearly in order to consider both the position of the perpetrator and the extent of the injury and the needs for justice of the victim. When opinions are formed and cases are decided with incomplete information or without hearing all the facts presented on both sides, it may more often result in injustice than justice.

Lastly I'd just add that mob justice isn't something that is limited to places outside of 'civilized' societies - in my own country these days it seems like many of us engage in a sort of 'trial by media' and rush to judge other people's innocence or guilt based on the latest news reports or social media posts of the day.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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Count Lucanor
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by Count Lucanor »

SneakySniper179 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 9:46 pm A few years ago I saw this video that took place in brazil. It was of a girl who was murdered by her boyfriend. She was 14 I believe and he was in his 20s. The police station was broken into by a mob of people. He was taken out to the streets and his fate was dictated by a crowd.

The proceeded to kick him and beat him with foreign objects. The lit him on fire and set fireworks off under him. A man proceeded to pick him up and slam him around. They were **** this kid up in everyway possible. His crime was heinous. He stabbed this young girl a bunch of times and beat the **** out of her If I believe.

I'm curious to see if that was justifiable. How much should the legal system have in the way of the town. If someone is that heinous should they take that punishment. In my heart I know they were wrong and right. I would expect nothing less from them and I am glad they dished it out.

I feel for the kids family but not for the person. There is a conflict I have with that situation because of the expelled brutality I don't see them as any different but at the same time the kid kinda deserve it. I ask you to not look at this with a civilized world view but a person in a Brazilian slum.

I believe it's too easy to make judgements on such things as a life you cannot truly fathom. I am just curious on your take on this as it was proven to be true.
I could sympathize with the mob here because at the end, considering the severity of the crime committed by this man, it seems that justice was accomplished. However, two similar cases in Mexico where the crowds did not accomplish justice, illustrates the need for formal procedures. They broke into the police station and took the suspects to the streets, where they beat them and burned them alive. Turns out the crowds were misinformed by rumors about the authorship of the heinous crimes and punished completely innocent people.

Death penalty is a severe form of punishment, even for those who endorse it (like me). Therefore, given the possibility of human error, there must be in place all the guarantees of presumption of innocence, fair trail, right to legal defense and appeal processes. All procedures designed to minimize the possibility of mistakes and an unfair verdict, must have been exhausted. About the form of punishment itself, a healthy progressive society would want to guarantee a treatment that aligns with a compassionate view of human life, which means respect for the dignity of every person and avoiding unnecessary suffering. None of these are very likely to be accomplished with street justice.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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runaway
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Re: Thoughts on street justice

Post by runaway »

I don’t agree with mob justice as they tend to act on impulse reactions to news rather than in an objective manner based on all the facts. If mob justice were the precedent then there could be many people who could have rumours made up about them and suffer some horrible consequences. However, if the crime was particularly horrible the legal system might not be tough enough and might even let them off the hook and the only way for the perpetrator to get what they deserve is through mob justice. Like I said though, mon justice is not the way to go as it will likely cause many more injustices than the legal system in more developed countries as it can be based on emotions and knee-jerk reactions rather than rational thought.
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