The question that drives me crazy

[Tegularius]

Everything you describe and worse, has happened countless times throughout history. Human nature is responsible for ALL the inhuman crimes of humanity and not just those perpetrated against each other. Man is at heart a monster needing only the right reasons to prove who he really is.

If we're going to do better I don't think such black and white thinking helps. That's no more who we ''really are'' than when we feel horror and anger about such things, when we love our kids, are kind to our neighbours, go about our day showing normal courtesies. It's all who we really are.

Understanding ourselves, the complexity, the reasons for why we react so differently in different circs and to different people (and species come to that), is the way forward imo. We're acquiring new tools to look at the neuroscience of that, and putting together an evolutionary back story. This potentially can help us to consciously adapt to mitigate the anachronistic negative effects of our evolved human nature. It's a big ask tho.

Philosophy can play a role. Can say now we're beginning to understand the details of the ''Is'' of why are the way we are, what should the ''Ought'' look like, and how might it be achieved. Because if there is no hell or powerful god to make it all right and fair in the end, it's up to us to grow out of that kind of infantilism, and do better ourselves.

I understand what you're saying and don't in principle disagree. But it has been always the case that the "Better Angels of our Nature" to quote the title of Steven Pinker's book, are usually deep-sixed by our worst impulses whenever they're released. It doesn't take much of a catalyst to show that which lives on the surface what Hell is really like.

One example, you mention kindness to neighbors and yet generations who lived side-by-side, in friendly cooperation, though ethnically or religiously diverse, start butchering trying to eliminate each other often by the most gruesome means. The synergy of what perpetrates crime and atrocities resides just below the mantle of the human psyche ready to explode when events heat up.

One can only judge not by what one wants to be but by what one is and by that criteria humans remain a miscreation of the highest order.

[evolution]

I remember going to the holocaust museum and seeing all the shoes stacked up and knowing all the bodies that occupied them. The teeth, The clothes the other valuables worth nothing to the dead. All of those things that represented a life stacked up in a pile. I read one day that josef mengele died on a beautiful beach in south america. The **** injustice of that sentiment drives me nuts.

I suffer for nothing and a man who killed people in terrible ways dies looking at a brazilian beach and just passes on.

What are you, supposedly, suffering of and from, exactly?

The people he killed screamed and begged and got nothing, Just nothing.

But they got 'dead', and that is something.

They were just experiments to him, Nothing more, nothing less. And this pos gets to die in one of the most beautiful places in the world.

Are you suggesting here that if he killed those people in some of the most beautiful places in the world, then it would not be as bad or wrong, thus more "justified"?

The injustice of that statement drives me nuts because if there isn't a hell there very well should be.

But there is a 'hell'. Those people endured it.

Not for just anyone but for him, He deserves it more than anyone and he got to die in the best way you can die. Looking at one of the most beautiful scenes you can see in your life and he just slipped away while others begged for mercy. without the idea of hell for some people I would go totally nuts. Nothing would ever matter.

So, without the idea of hell existing in some 'other' people, you would, supposedly, go totally 'nuts' (whatever that actually means), correct?

It's sickens me and I have to hope he went to sleep on a beautiful beach and woke up in a lake of fire because if not there is no point to this place.

I do not envision that the actual 'point' of this 'place' relies solely on what 'you' hope for.

Why would I even **** try. How **** is that injustice to the people he hurt. They died on an operating table and he died content looking at pure beauty.

What does it 'really' matter, they are 'all' dead now?

The most beautiful things he died and that was the last thing on this earth he ever saw.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You never know, the people who died under that "army" might have come to realize that the last thing they are seeing is an act that could actual make the world a much better place for 'every' in the future. That is; if and when human beings ever start learning from their mistakes and wrong doing.

Why the **** would I subscribe to morality.

But who ever said that "you have to"?

There would be no reason, Nothing at all. What would really be the point. The good get **** and the bad get to die on in beauty.

You never know who exactly was killed. Just maybe one of them killed was going to end up doing far worse than that one "army" ever did.

Just because one is killed by another, this, in itself, does not mean that that one was any "good" at all.

How absolutely **** up is that.

Absolutely every thing is relative, to the observer. So, if this is how you see things, and this is the only way that you can see things, then so be it.

If you don't see what I see you are a broken person in this regard.

But you are the one who said they were 'suffering'. Which, to others, is a sign of a "broken person".

My hatred knows no bounds to these people.

Who and/or what are 'these' people?

Do you never think about all of that 'extra' money that you have laying about if given could save the life of a starving child could, who is about to and will die, relatively, shortly, and who may wish that they could be put out of their suffering and misery in, say, a "gas chamber"?

Or, do you only like to 'look at' what "other" people and not 'look at' what 'you', "yourself", actually do?

Knowing that has hurt me more than anything and I hope with all my heart he is in hell burning.

So, do you really think or believe that 'you' hoping a human being is in hell burning is really going to relieve 'your' own 'suffering'?

Are 'you' even remotely aware of why that one did what they did?

By the way, do you also hope that one was, at birth, was taken from their mother and forced to endure burning? Would you like to have hoped that it was 'you' who took a human child and made them suffer burning for as long as you could make it last for that child?

If yes, then okay?

But if no, then why not?

[evolution]

Oh, I forgot to ask, what was that question, exactly, which supposedly drives you crazy by the way?

[evolution]

Everything you describe and worse, has happened countless times throughout history. Human nature is responsible for ALL the inhuman crimes of humanity and not just those perpetrated against each other. Man is at heart a monster needing only the right reasons to prove who he really is.

If this was even somewhat true, then human beings would have wiped themselves out a long time ago.

[evolution]

People on here have said that an eye for an eye would make the world blind. However, if there is no karmic force that ensures that everyone gets what they deserve in the end, is it wrong for people to take it upon themselves to deliver justice if it would never come otherwise?

But is the act of human beings inflicting ridicule, pain, and/or punishment onto other human beings 'justice'?

If yes, then through this kind of "justice" human beings would have been dead (or blinded) a long time ago.

[Belindi]

Everything you describe and worse, has happened countless times throughout history. Human nature is responsible for ALL the inhuman crimes of humanity and not just those perpetrated against each other. Man is at heart a monster needing only the right reasons to prove who he really is.

If we're going to do better I don't think such black and white thinking helps. That's no more who we ''really are'' than when we feel horror and anger about such things, when we love our kids, are kind to our neighbours, go about our day showing normal courtesies. It's all who we really are.

Understanding ourselves, the complexity, the reasons for why we react so differently in different circs and to different people (and species come to that), is the way forward imo. We're acquiring new tools to look at the neuroscience of that, and putting together an evolutionary back story. This potentially can help us to consciously adapt to mitigate the anachronistic negative effects of our evolved human nature. It's a big ask tho.

Philosophy can play a role. Can say now we're beginning to understand the details of the ''Is'' of why are the way we are, what should the ''Ought'' look like, and how might it be achieved. Because if there is no hell or powerful god to make it all right and fair in the end, it's up to us to grow out of that kind of infantilism, and do better ourselves.

I understand what you're saying and don't in principle disagree. But it has been always the case that the "Better Angels of our Nature" to quote the title of Steven Pinker's book, are usually deep-sixed by our worst impulses whenever they're released. It doesn't take much of a catalyst to show that which lives on the surface what Hell is really like.

One example, you mention kindness to neighbors and yet generations who lived side-by-side, in friendly cooperation, though ethnically or religiously diverse, start butchering trying to eliminate each other often by the most gruesome means. The synergy of what perpetrates crime and atrocities resides just below the mantle of the human psyche ready to explode when events heat up.

One can only judge not by what one wants to be but by what one is and by that criteria humans remain a miscreation of the highest order.

I agree; however that is not the end of the story.
Despite the prevalence of miscreants there are some who turn out to be good people. Based on our deplorable genetic inheritances from bacteria and suchlike as we undoubtedly are, we also know it is possible raising mankind 'above' miscreation can be achieved.

[Tegularius]

Everything you describe and worse, has happened countless times throughout history. Human nature is responsible for ALL the inhuman crimes of humanity and not just those perpetrated against each other. Man is at heart a monster needing only the right reasons to prove who he really is.

If we're going to do better I don't think such black and white thinking helps. That's no more who we ''really are'' than when we feel horror and anger about such things, when we love our kids, are kind to our neighbours, go about our day showing normal courtesies. It's all who we really are.

Understanding ourselves, the complexity, the reasons for why we react so differently in different circs and to different people (and species come to that), is the way forward imo. We're acquiring new tools to look at the neuroscience of that, and putting together an evolutionary back story. This potentially can help us to consciously adapt to mitigate the anachronistic negative effects of our evolved human nature. It's a big ask tho.

Philosophy can play a role. Can say now we're beginning to understand the details of the ''Is'' of why are the way we are, what should the ''Ought'' look like, and how might it be achieved. Because if there is no hell or powerful god to make it all right and fair in the end, it's up to us to grow out of that kind of infantilism, and do better ourselves.

I understand what you're saying and don't in principle disagree. But it has been always the case that the "Better Angels of our Nature" to quote the title of Steven Pinker's book, are usually deep-sixed by our worst impulses whenever they're released. It doesn't take much of a catalyst to show that which lives on the surface what Hell is really like.

One example, you mention kindness to neighbors and yet generations who lived side-by-side, in friendly cooperation, though ethnically or religiously diverse, start butchering trying to eliminate each other often by the most gruesome means. The synergy of what perpetrates crime and atrocities resides just below the mantle of the human psyche ready to explode when events heat up.

One can only judge not by what one wants to be but by what one is and by that criteria humans remain a miscreation of the highest order.

I agree; however that is not the end of the story.
Despite the prevalence of miscreants there are some who turn out to be good people. Based on our deplorable genetic inheritances from bacteria and suchlike as we undoubtedly are, we also know it is possible raising mankind 'above' miscreation can be achieved.

True insofar an improbability does not confirm an impossibility.

[Robert66]

... I read one day that josef mengele died on a beautiful beach in south america. The **** injustice of that sentiment drives me nuts.
I suffer for nothing and a man who killed people in terrible ways dies looking at a brazilian beach and just passes on.
...
The injustice of that statement drives me nuts because if there isn't a hell there very well should be. ... without the idea of hell for some people I would go totally nuts. Nothing would ever matter.
...
Why the **** would I subscribe to morality.
...
I hope with all my heart he is in hell burning.

Re-read what you have written, SneakySniper179. You have answered your question (Why would I subscribe to morality?) There is, as you illustrate very well, no divine justice or karmic force. If the idea of hell appears our only hope, and reasonably we could say that hell is just as unlikely as divine justice or karma, then we have all the more reason to subscribe to morality. More morality = fewer Mengeles.

[SneakySniper179]

That's very true. I agree 100%.

[Belindi]

If we're going to do better I don't think such black and white thinking helps. That's no more who we ''really are'' than when we feel horror and anger about such things, when we love our kids, are kind to our neighbours, go about our day showing normal courtesies. It's all who we really are.

Understanding ourselves, the complexity, the reasons for why we react so differently in different circs and to different people (and species come to that), is the way forward imo. We're acquiring new tools to look at the neuroscience of that, and putting together an evolutionary back story. This potentially can help us to consciously adapt to mitigate the anachronistic negative effects of our evolved human nature. It's a big ask tho.

Philosophy can play a role. Can say now we're beginning to understand the details of the ''Is'' of why are the way we are, what should the ''Ought'' look like, and how might it be achieved. Because if there is no hell or powerful god to make it all right and fair in the end, it's up to us to grow out of that kind of infantilism, and do better ourselves.

I understand what you're saying and don't in principle disagree. But it has been always the case that the "Better Angels of our Nature" to quote the title of Steven Pinker's book, are usually deep-sixed by our worst impulses whenever they're released. It doesn't take much of a catalyst to show that which lives on the surface what Hell is really like.

One example, you mention kindness to neighbors and yet generations who lived side-by-side, in friendly cooperation, though ethnically or religiously diverse, start butchering trying to eliminate each other often by the most gruesome means. The synergy of what perpetrates crime and atrocities resides just below the mantle of the human psyche ready to explode when events heat up.

One can only judge not by what one wants to be but by what one is and by that criteria humans remain a miscreation of the highest order.

I agree; however that is not the end of the story.
Despite the prevalence of miscreants there are some who turn out to be good people. Based on our deplorable genetic inheritances from bacteria and suchlike as we undoubtedly are, we also know it is possible raising mankind 'above' miscreation can be achieved.

True insofar an improbability does not confirm an impossibility.

Especially in the case of sapiens who because he learns from previous experience has many possibilities.

[Steve3007]

But humans are more able than are other animals to have insight into emotional response...

Yes, I agree. My post may have seemed more doomy and pessimistic than it was intended to be. It was just a description, as I see it, of the core reasons why cycles of violence continue through history - one of the main reasons why people occasionally do terrible things to each other. They still do these things, for the same set of reasons, and probably always will. But that doesn't mean there is no hope. If we look at the actual statistics, worldwide, at least by some measures, the chances of being the victim of this kind of violence have steadily dropped over the last several decades. Global systems for trying to limit violence, like international law and the UN, may have limited success, but at least they exist, as they have never existed in the past.

[Gertie]

Everything you describe and worse, has happened countless times throughout history. Human nature is responsible for ALL the inhuman crimes of humanity and not just those perpetrated against each other. Man is at heart a monster needing only the right reasons to prove who he really is.

If we're going to do better I don't think such black and white thinking helps. That's no more who we ''really are'' than when we feel horror and anger about such things, when we love our kids, are kind to our neighbours, go about our day showing normal courtesies. It's all who we really are.

Understanding ourselves, the complexity, the reasons for why we react so differently in different circs and to different people (and species come to that), is the way forward imo. We're acquiring new tools to look at the neuroscience of that, and putting together an evolutionary back story. This potentially can help us to consciously adapt to mitigate the anachronistic negative effects of our evolved human nature. It's a big ask tho.

Philosophy can play a role. Can say now we're beginning to understand the details of the ''Is'' of why are the way we are, what should the ''Ought'' look like, and how might it be achieved. Because if there is no hell or powerful god to make it all right and fair in the end, it's up to us to grow out of that kind of infantilism, and do better ourselves.

I understand what you're saying and don't in principle disagree. But it has been always the case that the "Better Angels of our Nature" to quote the title of Steven Pinker's book, are usually deep-sixed by our worst impulses whenever they're released. It doesn't take much of a catalyst to show that which lives on the surface what Hell is really like.

One example, you mention kindness to neighbors and yet generations who lived side-by-side, in friendly cooperation, though ethnically or religiously diverse, start butchering trying to eliminate each other often by the most gruesome means. The synergy of what perpetrates crime and atrocities resides just below the mantle of the human psyche ready to explode when events heat up.

One can only judge not by what one wants to be but by what one is and by that criteria humans remain a miscreation of the highest order.

Yes it's right we all know people are capable of terrible things, and our capabilities for terrible destruction are vast. A war can devastate millions, and succeeding generations. A single crime can devastate a family.


But I don't find the view that this is the 'real' us, our real nature, red in tooth and claw, which is simply hidden by a day to day mantle of cooperation and consideration constraining our 'real' nature, either correct or helpful. We are all these things, and many more. We're not angels or devils, we're a highly complex evolved kludge of predispositions, including selfish and social, whose brains are equipped to adapt, to reconfigure, to environmental factors - to learn. Certain environmental factors tend to bring out the best in us, some the worst.


If we think of ourselves in that way, neurobiologically, or psychologically as Belinda says, then we can do better. If we understand what brings out the worst in us and why, we can better dodge the pitfalls our evolutionary history has bequeathed us. One thing we know is that many of our social dispositions evolved for up close and personal tribal living, the neurobiological mechanisms involved in trust, care and bonding are more effectively triggered in that setting. And outsiders are treated with more suspicion, as potential threats or competitors.

But now we live in a globalised world of inter-dependent strangers, artificially grouped as huge nation state 'tribes', constantly bumping up against each other's interests. And we see the rise of nationalism sweeping through previously dominant nations who feel threatened, and a resurgence of 'othering' within, targetting immigrants. Our current politics is ugly, and some politicians appeal to the worst in us knowing it will get us in the gut, trigger a tribal response which by-passes reason. They say they are 'being real', telling it like it is. Those who disagree are merely 'virtue signalling'. But that's a dangerous misunderstanding, it's no more real than appealing to our social, caring and cooperative dispositions.

[Tegularius]

I understand what you're saying and don't in principle disagree. But it has been always the case that the "Better Angels of our Nature" to quote the title of Steven Pinker's book, are usually deep-sixed by our worst impulses whenever they're released. It doesn't take much of a catalyst to show that which lives on the surface what Hell is really like.

One example, you mention kindness to neighbors and yet generations who lived side-by-side, in friendly cooperation, though ethnically or religiously diverse, start butchering trying to eliminate each other often by the most gruesome means. The synergy of what perpetrates crime and atrocities resides just below the mantle of the human psyche ready to explode when events heat up.

One can only judge not by what one wants to be but by what one is and by that criteria humans remain a miscreation of the highest order.

I agree; however that is not the end of the story.
Despite the prevalence of miscreants there are some who turn out to be good people. Based on our deplorable genetic inheritances from bacteria and suchlike as we undoubtedly are, we also know it is possible raising mankind 'above' miscreation can be achieved.

True insofar an improbability does not confirm an impossibility.

Especially in the case of sapiens who because he learns from previous experience has many possibilities.

If only that were true! By the time they learn the damage is already done. Think of the climate fiascos happening and getting worse which we've been warned about since 1960s and 70s. The world isn't getting any better. Don't know whether you noticed that or not.

[evolution]

The question that drives me crazy

What is the question that drives you crazy?

[GrayArea]

I have the answer to your question. The ultimate truth of life is that there is ultimately no right or wrong; it is evident to me that the wisest thing to do in this world is to simply do what is allowed by the world, allowed by you. There isn't any other set answer because the universe does not have any standards. And the best part is that you can still strive for good and not go down the path of wretchedness as long as you allow yourself to be.