The question that drives me crazy

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SneakySniper179
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The question that drives me crazy

Post by SneakySniper179 »

I remember going to the holocaust museum and seeing all the shoes stacked up and knowing all the bodies that occupied them. The teeth, The clothes the other valuables worth nothing to the dead. All of those things that represented a life stacked up in a pile. I read one day that josef mengele died on a beautiful beach in south america. The **** injustice of that sentiment drives me nuts.

I suffer for nothing and a man who killed people in terrible ways dies looking at a brazilian beach and just passes on. The people he killed screamed and begged and got nothing, Just nothing. They were just experiments to him, Nothing more, nothing less. And this pos gets to die in one of the most beautiful places in the world.

The injustice of that statement drives me nuts because if there isn't a hell there very well should be. Not for just anyone but for him, He deserves it more than anyone and he got to die in the best way you can die. Looking at one of the most beautiful scenes you can see in your life and he just slipped away while others begged for mercy. without the idea of hell for some people I would go totally nuts. Nothing would ever matter.

It's sickens me and I have to hope he went to sleep on a beautiful beach and woke up in a lake of fire because if not there is no point to this place. Why would I even **** try. How **** is that injustice to the people he hurt. They died on an operating table and he died content looking at pure beauty. The most beautiful things he died and that was the last thing on this earth he ever saw.

Why the **** would I subscribe to morality. There would be no reason, Nothing at all. What would really be the point. The good get **** and the bad get to die on in beauty. How absolutely **** up is that.

If you don't see what I see you are a broken person in this regard. My hatred knows no bounds to these people. Knowing that has hurt me more than anything and I hope with all my heart he is in hell burning.
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LuckyR
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by LuckyR »

Part of the problem is that you seem to have an expectation that there is some sort of metaphysical karmic force that evens the score after the fact. That is that the wicked of the world get retrospectively punished and the victims of the world find post hoc relief.

The world doesn't work that way. There is no cosmic balancing force. You are correct that believing in such a force soothes the fears of children, thats why we tell them stories with happy endings, but it isn't really very accurate, as you demonstrated in your post.
"As usual... it depends."
Steve3007
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Steve3007 »

SneakySniper179 wrote:...If you don't see what I see you are a broken person in this regard. My hatred knows no bounds to these people. Knowing that has hurt me more than anything and I hope with all my heart he is in hell burning.
If part of your purpose in creating a topic like this is to examine your own mind, then I guess you could start by looking at what you're proposiing and trying to work out what motivates you to propose it. You're proposing that the best response to the infliction of pain is the infliction of more pain. Some people would propose that as a deterant to the future infliction of pain. They would argue that if it's clear that doing terrible things to other people will result in an eternity of torture for the would-be perpetrator, they're less likely to do it. So the aim there would be to deter bad things from happening in the future.

Is that your motive? If not, what is your motive for wishing suffering on some people? Are you willing to accept that whatever that motive is, it might be essentially the same motive that led the perpetrator to inflict pain in the first place?
Steve3007
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Steve3007 »

I think the anger you express in this topic reflects one of the central tragedies of the human condition. It is precisely this kind of anger that keeps it all going because anger, by its very nature, very often spills over and loses focus. Typically someone is wronged, or perceives themselves to have been wronged, by an individual or sub-group. The resulting strong emotions of anger and sense of grievance tend, by their nature, to destroy the ability to think coolly and rationally. They take out their anger on more than just that individual or sub-group. (Maybe the individual or sub-group are dead so they don't have anywhere to put their anger.) This then creates more people with grievances and anger and they do the same. And so it goes on.

It may sound trite to quote Gandhi, but he really was right when he said that an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.

So if you want to know the main reason why bad things happen in the world, look at the emotions you're expressing in this topic.
Steve3007
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Steve3007 »

Identifying this kind of anger as part of the tragedy of the human condition doesn't mean we're somehow condemning the anger, or telling people not to feel it. We all know (if we've experienced life enough to have felt these kinds of emotions) that strong emotions don't work like that. You can't rationalize your way out of them. You can't just decide to switch them off. That's why I call it a tragedy. A tragedy, to me, is a terrible situation in which terrible things are done by people to other people, but which has a kind of inevitability about it, due to basic principles about human nature which we can't change.
Tegularius
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Tegularius »

Everything you describe and worse, has happened countless times throughout history. Human nature is responsible for ALL the inhuman crimes of humanity and not just those perpetrated against each other. Man is at heart a monster needing only the right reasons to prove who he really is.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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runaway
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by runaway »

People on here have said that an eye for an eye would make the world blind. However, if there is no karmic force that ensures that everyone gets what they deserve in the end, is it wrong for people to take it upon themselves to deliver justice if it would never come otherwise?
SneakySniper179
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by SneakySniper179 »

I come to realize all of the points you brought up and I believe that might be characterized on my own self dwelling on something's I find unjust but really has nothing to do with me. This is a man who died before my lifetime and is just a figurehead I believe use to classify the injustice in the world and to make me feel better about my own life. I tend to get heated about topics that have no concern in my world and I project certain things on them. I am moving away from that but still. It drives me nuts.

The saying is really true "if you stare in the abyss it stares back at you" I believe if there was a point benefit to the holocaust it would be not to do it again. It was the first time something like that was documented to the extent It was in history. Probably some things on the scientific end also.

It's an injustice I have to just say happens. We all want things to be a certain way and something the best peace you can get is accepting they are not what they should be and what are you going to do about that now. I believe that's inherently true from my own life.
Steve3007
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Steve3007 »

SneakySniper179 wrote:I tend to get heated about topics that have no concern in my world and I project certain things on them. I am moving away from that but still. It drives me nuts.
I think that's probably a very common thing to do. I do it myself too. I get irrationally and impotently angry about the various injustices in the world, and there's sometimes probably an element of me projecting various frustrations about my own life onto the world. I say "impotently" because one of the problems with the modern world is that we can be constantly fed stories of people doing terrible things to other people with pretty much nothing that we as individuals can do about it. Put in the context of all human history (pre-internet, pre-TV, pre-large civilizations), this "passive viewing" of other people that we do is very unnatural. We evolved in environments where if you see somebody doing something you can interject because if you can see them they're standing near you!

One frequently proposed solution to this problem of our inability to stop bad things happening in the world is to make a point of doing good things ourselves to try to, in some way, counter the bad things. Be nice to people nearby if we can't influence what is happening to people far away!
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Steve3007 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 6:09 am I think the anger you express in this topic reflects one of the central tragedies of the human condition. It is precisely this kind of anger that keeps it all going because anger, by its very nature, very often spills over and loses focus. Typically someone is wronged, or perceives themselves to have been wronged, by an individual or sub-group. The resulting strong emotions of anger and sense of grievance tend, by their nature, to destroy the ability to think coolly and rationally. They take out their anger on more than just that individual or sub-group. (Maybe the individual or sub-group are dead so they don't have anywhere to put their anger.) This then creates more people with grievances and anger and they do the same. And so it goes on.

Yes, that's a good perspective. Maybe the point and purpose of this anger is to motivate us to do something about it? Not necessarily something violent, of course, but something...?
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LuckyR
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by LuckyR »

runaway wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:47 am People on here have said that an eye for an eye would make the world blind. However, if there is no karmic force that ensures that everyone gets what they deserve in the end, is it wrong for people to take it upon themselves to deliver justice if it would never come otherwise?
The key word being "never". Jump into the vengeance thread.
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Ecurb
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Ecurb »

How does punishing people "deliver justice"? I hear this all the time. "We want justice for George Floyd," chant the protesters. Sorry. That can't happen. He's dead. I'll grant that punishing Derek Chauvin is "just" in that the punishment is merited under our system of law, but it doesn't deliver justice to anyone except, perhaps, Chauvin.

Same with Mengele. Who benefits from his suffering? Sneaky Sniper? Is it reasonable for Sniper to relish and enjoy Mangele's torture?

When the punishment is public, of course, it can serve as a deterent to future crimes. That's not the case for burning in hell, except to believers. In fact, the Torquemadas of the Inquisition thought that torturing live people to save immortal souls was "just", and although their premises were incorrect and misguided, their reasoning is flawless. They tortured to prevent everlasting, eternal torture. The greatest good for the greatest number.

Everyone suffers and everyone dies. "Der tod ist gross", wrote Rilke, death is huge. Perhaps by blaming evil people for some deaths we avoid blaming God (or nature) for the rest of them.
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psyreporter
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by psyreporter »

Can the weak win?

"What is the meaning of life?" is a question that has driven many to atrocities, towards themselves and towards others. In a wicked attempt to overcome this 'weakness', some (e.g. Nazi's) believe that they should live with a gun under their nose.

An often cited quote by Nazi Hermann Göring: "When I hear the word culture, I reach for my Browning!" (when I hear the word culture, I reach for my gun)

Culture, art and music almost disappeared in the period that the Nazi's were in power. They hate it because they are incapable to see meaning in life, which forms a source for talent, art and reciprocal respect.

It is easy to claim that life has no meaning because empirical evidence is impossible.

The implications in modern times can be seen in science. It appears to be an ideal of science to abolish morality completely.

Immoral advances: Is science out of control?
To many scientists, moral objections to their work are not valid: science, by definition, is morally neutral, so any moral judgement on it simply reflects scientific illiteracy.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg ... f-control/

(2019) Science and Morals: Can morality be deduced from the facts of science?
The issue should have been settled by David Hume in 1740: the facts of science provide no basis for values. Yet, like some kind of recurrent meme, the idea that science is omnipotent and will sooner or later solve the problem of values seems to resurrect with every generation.
https://sites.duke.edu/behavior/2019/04 ... f-science/

Atheism is a way out for people who would potentially (be prone to) seek the guidance that religions promise to provide. By revolting against religions, they (hope to) find stability in life.

The extremity developed by atheism in the form of a dogmatic belief in the facts of science can result in practices such as eugenics, a scientific ideology that laid at the basis of the Nazi holocaust. The desire for a 'easy way out' by people that attempt escape exploitation of their weakness (read: inability to define the meaning of life) would result in corruption to 'acquire qualities' in a way that is immoral.

An analogy may be the story about the Devil that attempts to overturn God with trickery and deceit. It describes a weakling that tries to become stronger than a perceived strength in others by attempting to escape nature with corruption. A choice for evil.

What is strength? From my perspective, it would be the optimal serving of life and to do so, what it would entail for humans is philosophy driven/guided progress (i.e. intelligent life).

According to Aristotle, philosophical contemplation is the greatest human virtue.

Fear driven progress is an option but I do not believe that it is an intelligent option.
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
Gertie
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Gertie »

Tegularius wrote: March 12th, 2021, 6:38 am Everything you describe and worse, has happened countless times throughout history. Human nature is responsible for ALL the inhuman crimes of humanity and not just those perpetrated against each other. Man is at heart a monster needing only the right reasons to prove who he really is.
If we're going to do better I don't think such black and white thinking helps. That's no more who we ''really are'' than when we feel horror and anger about such things, when we love our kids, are kind to our neighbours, go about our day showing normal courtesies. It's all who we really are.

Understanding ourselves, the complexity, the reasons for why we react so differently in different circs and to different people (and species come to that), is the way forward imo. We're acquiring new tools to look at the neuroscience of that, and putting together an evolutionary back story. This potentially can help us to consciously adapt to mitigate the anachronistic negative effects of our evolved human nature. It's a big ask tho.

Philosophy can play a role. Can say now we're beginning to understand the details of the ''Is'' of why are the way we are, what should the ''Ought'' look like, and how might it be achieved. Because if there is no hell or powerful god to make it all right and fair in the end, it's up to us to grow out of that kind of infantilism, and do better ourselves.
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Re: The question that drives me crazy

Post by Belindi »

Steve3007 wrote: March 12th, 2021, 6:36 am Identifying this kind of anger as part of the tragedy of the human condition doesn't mean we're somehow condemning the anger, or telling people not to feel it. We all know (if we've experienced life enough to have felt these kinds of emotions) that strong emotions don't work like that. You can't rationalize your way out of them. You can't just decide to switch them off. That's why I call it a tragedy. A tragedy, to me, is a terrible situation in which terrible things are done by people to other people, but which has a kind of inevitability about it, due to basic principles about human nature which we can't change.
But humans are more able than are other animals to have insight into emotional response. Your ability to respond as you just did shows that you are aware of the power of emotions to cause behaviours. True, you cannot wish away your emotional responses but you can change them before acting if you understand and know, not only regarding other people , but also regarding your own emotional responses.
Psychoanalysis is based on achievement of insight into own emotions so as not to be enslaved by emotions.
Emotional flatness is not good but what is good is rational knowledge of emotional responses. It is necessary to try to be objective about own feelings so that emotions don't blind to possible responses to a situation.

There is a Romantic fallacy that you should express your emotions in your actions, notably in escapist romantic love fiction** when individuals' emotions are considered to be all that matters.

** and many commercial popular song lyrics of the 60s and 70s.
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