Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
User avatar
King Pruss
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: March 15th, 2021, 1:59 pm

Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by King Pruss »

In On the Genealogy of Morality, Nietzsche discusses the slave revolt in morality. He labels the values that Judeo-Christianity introduced into the world as slave morality. It is born our of ressentiment of the masters of the previous way of life. They were so great that their greatness was constructed into virtues to be celebrated in society. Good was this. Bad were those traits opposite of what was celebrated. Through the slave revolt in morality, what was bad in master morality became good, but the good in master morality became evil.

I admit I am quite young (21) and haven't had great experience to the different political landscapes throughout US history. However, it seems to me that politics today has followed a similar values revolt. From viewing Democrats as pedophile, satanic cabals, to labeling Republicans as racist and furthering white supremacy, both sides are made out to be evil. As Nietzsche writes, slave morality is not a yes-saying to oneself, it is a no-saying to the other. Political alignments today seem to closely follow that. Less of being proud to be a specific party for the values it stands for, and more that the other party is evil and thus should never be considered.

I have taken Nietzsche's account of who led this revolt with a grain of salt. He mentions priests leading it out of revenge for being weak themselves and wanting to overthrow the established leaders. That seems pretty iffy to me but it is an interesting idea.

I'd like to hear your opinions on this relationship. How closely related do you see these two 'revolts'? Who would Nietzsche label as the 'priests' in leading what is happening in politics today? Is a 'slave-revolt'-esque in politics anything worthy of consideration?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by LuckyR »

Based on your age it may surprise you that the way US politics worked traditionally (before a guy named Newt Gingrich), is that bills in congress, let's say a liberal bill, would get 75% support from the Democrats (the most conservative 25% would vote no) and 15% support from the most moderate Republicans. Conservative bills would do the reverse. Moderate bills might get 65% from both parties. Sounds weird now, but it was the way things got done. Under the current tribalistic system almost nothing gets done, there is no back room horsetrading for votes. Pathetic, really.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by Sculptor1 »

The media is the new slave master, and humans love to participate in their own oppression and servitude.
As the media is divided so too is the populace.
And since the media is basically right wing (even the so-called left), then so is the country two groups of slaves doing the bidding of those that control the message.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by Pattern-chaser »

King Pruss wrote: March 29th, 2021, 6:19 pm From viewing Democrats as pedophile, satanic cabals, to labeling Republicans as racist and furthering white supremacy, both sides are made out to be evil.
And yet Democrats are not (generally) paedophiles or satanists, while the Republican Party does promote racist and white-supremacist views. The latter can easily be verified empirically. 🤔🤔🤔
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by Pattern-chaser »

King Pruss wrote: March 29th, 2021, 6:19 pm I have taken Nietzsche's account of who led this revolt with a grain of salt. He mentions priests leading it out of revenge for being weak themselves and wanting to overthrow the established leaders. That seems pretty iffy to me but it is an interesting idea.
Nietzsche's views are typical of someone who really doesn't like, or approve of, religion and religious belief. They identify a real problem, then blame religion for it. It's a sort of straw man argument. That's not to say that religion is innocent of any wrongdoing, far from it! But equally we can say that it isn't responsible for all of mankind's woes.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:06 am The media is the new slave master, and humans love to participate in their own oppression and servitude.
As the media is divided so too is the populace.
And since the media is basically right wing (even the so-called left), then so is the country two groups of slaves doing the bidding of those that control the message.
Well I agree that between the radical right and left and the standard right and left, only the radical left is not really represented in the mainstream media. Though it is an exaggeration to suppose that the standard left is not represented.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: March 30th, 2021, 1:37 pm ...Though it is an exaggeration to suppose that the standard left is not represented.
It is? <surprised> It is represented, but not well, and not a lot, IMO.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: March 30th, 2021, 4:30 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 30th, 2021, 1:37 pm ...Though it is an exaggeration to suppose that the standard left is not represented.
It is? <surprised> It is represented, but not well, and not a lot, IMO.
Glad to hear we agree.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: March 30th, 2021, 1:37 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:06 am The media is the new slave master, and humans love to participate in their own oppression and servitude.
As the media is divided so too is the populace.
And since the media is basically right wing (even the so-called left), then so is the country two groups of slaves doing the bidding of those that control the message.
Well I agree that between the radical right and left and the standard right and left, only the radical left is not really represented in the mainstream media. Though it is an exaggeration to suppose that the standard left is not represented.
It's a matter of perspective.
Jeremy Corbyn was to the right of Harold Wilson, though Wilson was considered centre left in his day. These days Corbyn is rather mild in terms of the left/right, though he seems to be denigrated as the most dangerous man in the world, like some sort of left wing radical.

Given Boris his governments complete disregard for basic democratic process, one has to wondere there the hell is the centre supposed to be?

I challenge you to demonstrate any "standard left" representation in the media!
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:43 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 30th, 2021, 1:37 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:06 am The media is the new slave master, and humans love to participate in their own oppression and servitude.
As the media is divided so too is the populace.
And since the media is basically right wing (even the so-called left), then so is the country two groups of slaves doing the bidding of those that control the message.
Well I agree that between the radical right and left and the standard right and left, only the radical left is not really represented in the mainstream media. Though it is an exaggeration to suppose that the standard left is not represented.
It's a matter of perspective.
Jeremy Corbyn was to the right of Harold Wilson, though Wilson was considered centre left in his day. These days Corbyn is rather mild in terms of the left/right, though he seems to be denigrated as the most dangerous man in the world, like some sort of left wing radical.

Given Boris his governments complete disregard for basic democratic process, one has to wondere there the hell is the centre supposed to be?

I challenge you to demonstrate any "standard left" representation in the media!
Again it depends on your definition of terms, historically. Under current classifications MSNBC would be considered standard center left.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
King Pruss
New Trial Member
Posts: 2
Joined: March 15th, 2021, 1:59 pm

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by King Pruss »

LuckyR wrote: March 30th, 2021, 9:01 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:43 pm
LuckyR wrote: March 30th, 2021, 1:37 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:06 am The media is the new slave master, and humans love to participate in their own oppression and servitude.
As the media is divided so too is the populace.
And since the media is basically right wing (even the so-called left), then so is the country two groups of slaves doing the bidding of those that control the message.
Well I agree that between the radical right and left and the standard right and left, only the radical left is not really represented in the mainstream media. Though it is an exaggeration to suppose that the standard left is not represented.
It's a matter of perspective.
Jeremy Corbyn was to the right of Harold Wilson, though Wilson was considered centre left in his day. These days Corbyn is rather mild in terms of the left/right, though he seems to be denigrated as the most dangerous man in the world, like some sort of left wing radical.

Given Boris his governments complete disregard for basic democratic process, one has to wondere there the hell is the centre supposed to be?

I challenge you to demonstrate any "standard left" representation in the media!
Again it depends on your definition of terms, historically. Under current classifications MSNBC would be considered standard center left.
I think when I originally asked this question I was curious about: Nietzsche's revelation on the 'evil' that slave-morality introduced to the world's moral value system. I couldn't help but see this same 'evil' concept of the other being woven into our political system today. Before, it seemed that the political value systems were just good and bad, akin to master morality. Now, both sides are entangled in a good vs evil battle. I wanted to bounce some ideas with someone on the implications of this and further this exploration.

On the genealogy of US political morality (lol), one could call this investigation. The US seems to be at a point where there is a strong division on the values to rally behind as a nation. There is the MAGA movement that holds in great reverence what the US stood for. Always viewing themselves as #1, the worlds savior, capitalism allowing everyone to succeed, etc. Then the counter movement recently looking to shine the light that America was never so great. The country was built on racism and the backs of slaves, capitalism only favors certain demographics, etc. The MAGA movement refuses to accept this and takes great hurt in these 'un-patriotic' slanders. This was only through a brief reflection, more work would need to be done.

I think some good philosophical routes to keep exploring this are: When did this sudden shift from mere economic policy and general values disagreements to downright barbaric division occur? What led us to this state (I have a hunch many things relate to the capitalist system leading to fortunes and technology never realized before)? Which value system is healthier to pursue? Nietzsche would not be pleased in a universal value system for everyone, but as he alludes in Zarathustra, the student must break from the master at some point.

I think this is more to explore and hopefully isn't forgotten. It can easily fall into the realm of political philosophy but I think focusing on the values dilemma separates it from a purely political issue. Hopefully I adequately led y'all to where my head was going with this post.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by Ecurb »

Sculptor1 wrote: March 30th, 2021, 7:06 am The media is the new slave master, and humans love to participate in their own oppression and servitude.
As the media is divided so too is the populace.
And since the media is basically right wing (even the so-called left), then so is the country two groups of slaves doing the bidding of those that control the message.
It is all too common for the oppressed to want to become the oppresors. Instead of wanting to eliminate slavery, the slaves want to become slave-masters. Those who were raised in poverty want to become rich, and measure "achievement" in the size of their purses -- hence the bling. IN part this is due to the priviledged influencing societal ethos.

Blaming the "media" is simply silly. Has Sculptor (one wonders) broken his own chains? How is it he has avoided slavery, while the rest of us have not? Maybe he remains enslaved (we know he watches TV constantly). In the internet era, the "media" is more diverse than it has ever been. True: many media outlets cater to particular groups, but the notion that these outlets "enslave" people is ludicrous. It minimizes the evil of ACTUAL slavery. I think some people (often leftists) don't want to criticize the hoi palloi who support Trump or Fox News. They prefer seeing "elites" bamboozling and misguiding the deluded (but generally honorable) proletariat. I don't buy it. The Protestant and Capitalist ethic is well established; the "media" that established this ethos are parents and the pulpit, not Fox News.
Tegularius
Posts: 711
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: Nietzsche, Good and Evil, and politics today

Post by Tegularius »

I imagine Nietzsche would have despised the political systems of both East and West almost as much as Nazism.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021